Spotting

[CrazyIvan 0]

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It varies. It also depends on what altitude they go out at. A lot of DZs only take Tandems to 10k, and the load up to 13k, so that would make a difference.

Actually that's right, Tandems usually exit at 10K, at least, at the DZ's I've visited.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[skr 1]

> Anyone got any tips on spotting?

You probably need to make a couple hundred Cessna
jumps, most or maybe all the turbine places use GPS.

From the point of view of keeping the dropzone machine
cycling and processing revenue units (jumpers) the GPS
makes sense, but when you ask what kind of jumpers do
you want to produce maybe manual spotting makes more
sense.

But even in the 60's, as soon as you got a big plane like
a Beech, it was common for a few people to spot most of
the loads and many people to let it slide.

In theory everybody was supposed to know how, but we
all knew who could spot and who to keep away from the
door :-) :-)

Skr

[betzilla 56]

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Tandems last?....mmmmm, I thought they exited first, or that varies from DZ to DZ?

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It varies. It also depends on what altitude they go out at. A lot of DZs only take Tandems to 10k, and the load up to 13k, so that would make a difference.

Tandems get full altitude at my DZ, and they exit last, since they pull at 5500. Exit order here is generally: belly jumps, largest to smallest, FF jumps, largest to smallest, AFP students, then tandems. I'm sure there have been exceptions, but I can't think of any off hand.

[lukepinion 0]

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At our DZ, one of the pilots took an aerial photo of the DZ and put directions (i.e. 240, 180, etc.) on the map. Now, every day, we have a paper that says winds aloft at the various altitudes and on the photo can find where our exit point is. And, since we're looking at the aerial photo, it's really easy to find our exit spot when we're in the plane.

We also have the same thing at my DZ. It helps for spotting as well as planning a landing patern.

Luke

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

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Did you really just assert that the higher-opening groups should get out ahead of the lower-opening group? Of all the arguments i've ever heard for FF out first, that's gotta be a dodgiest.

Uh Germ, no that is not what I asserted at all. If you would have taken the time to read what I did say, you would have figured out that I said the lower opening experienced belly fliers should exit before the higher opening belly fliers, then AFF students then tandems since they open higher. I then followed to say make sure you check with the load organizer at the individual DZ since some DZ's will have FFers out first and some will have belly fliers out first. BTW, what argument do you have that is less "dodgy" for freeflyers out first?

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

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[diverdriver 5]

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Usually the exit order should be freeflyers out first since they get down faster then experienced lower opening belly flyers

ABSOLUTELY NOT!! I can't believe we are still preaching this doctrine. Well, I guess I will have to post John Kallend's work on freefall drift again so people can see why this is a bad idea. Take a look HERE for the information.

The exit order should be:

Flat fliers largest group to smallest.
Free fliers largest group to smallest.
Freefall students with instructors.
Tandems.
Wingsuits.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[AggieDave 6]

To add to the list:

Flat fliers largest group to smallest.
Free fliers largest group to smallest.
Freefall students with instructors.
Tandems.
Wingsuits.
CReW.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diverdriver 5]

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To add to the list:

Flat fliers largest group to smallest.
Free fliers largest group to smallest.
Freefall students with instructors.
Tandems.
Wingsuits.
CReW.

Oh yah, I forgot. When I was doing CRW we always got out at 6K because if we didn't get it together there was usually a compatibility issue so why go to full altitude. That was a Cessna DZ so you didn't have plane after plane making drops on the same area.

The tandem out first at 10K then the rest of the load going to 13k has never made much sense to me. I know other DZs use it and make it work but it would seem to me to increase their fuel burn per load and increase their turn around time. I hate doing two passes at normal jumprun altitude because of silliness. I can't imagine wanting to do more than one pass with tandems on board. The idea of circling around and dropping in the same area in about 2 minutes scares me in that they could also have a premature deployment. I certainly would want to level off during their exit so that there is less risk of a tail strike (yes I've had a drogue tail strike in the otter so it is possible).

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

I see your point Chris and it is a good one. Many DZs do differ on that issue though which is again why I said to check with the load organizer at the specific DZ. Just as a question though, if you all agree that AFF students and tandems should exit after freeflyers then what is the difference when a 3 way AFF formation floats over a freeflyer due to wind drift on opening vs. a belly fly 3 way opening over freeflyers when they exit after the freeflyers? Don't you agree that the key is good horizontal separation in the airplane on exit? And since FFlyers are falling generally much faster by the time they open wouldn't there be enough vertical separation between canopies? Just looking for some clarification on a still apparently contraversial topic. Thanks

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[diverdriver 5]

I'm glad you asked that question. It does seem to be a glaring inconcistancy in what I posted. Here's why. The AFF/AFP instructor is supposed to be more knowlegdable than the average Joe in skydiving. Also, students tend to take a long time to "climb out" or get in position naturally. This extra time is making up the seperation necessary to be safe. The AFF/AFP instructor also has direct control over the student so they can slow the climbout down if needed for strong uppers.

Another trick to add in seperation without anyone really knowing it is to do crosswind jumpruns (which I prefer). It keeps the groundspeed up AND it causes the groups to drift parallel to each other rather than directly at each other. Pretty smart huh?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[jerm 0]

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Uh Germ, no that is not what I asserted at all. If you would have taken the time to read what I did say, you would have figured out that I said the lower opening experienced belly fliers should exit before the higher opening belly fliers,

yes, my fault, i fscked up my then & than... BUT you still put freefliers out first, which i still take issue with.

Personally i think most "freefliers out first" arguments are dodgy, but yours wasn't what i thought it was, so es macht nichts aus.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[dreamsville 0]

I'm glad you mentioned the drop interval issue. Within the last year I was in a situation where the hop-n-pops somehow ended up gettting dropped at 9 grand, and the other groups in the same general area on the next pass at 13 grand. Since the latter ended up having to watch for the former (luckily no occurred), this caution is probably worth mentioning, even if it sounds so obvious. If there are multiple planes/passes, make sure the preceding groups can reasonably expected to be out of the way.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

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Personally i think most "freefliers out first" arguments are dodgy, but yours wasn't what i thought it was, so es macht nichts aus.

No problem, no worries. To be honest I don't think there is necessarily a wrong or right answer, I think the key is timing and giving enough separation. I don't speak German well enough to know what "so es macht nichts aus". Please expound in English. I do agree that the wind drift is a definite hazard issue if you do not allow enough horizontal separation. So just allow enough separation between groups and everyone should be okay.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

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[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Oh and I didn't mean to leave out all of you CREW and Birdmen/Birdwomen. I just never seem to see many of you at my DZ.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[jerm 0]

[replyI don't speak German well enough to know what "so es macht nichts aus". Please expound in English. [/replyI
So "It doesn't matter"

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do agree that the wind drift is a definite hazard issue if you do not allow enough horizontal separation. So just allow enough separation between groups and everyone should be okay. ]

throw more than wind drift, but yes, so long as proper separation is given, it's all good. The point is that vRW out first generally makes proper separation harder to attain.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[LouDiamond 1]

I had a feeling this thread would open up several old debates. It seems one cannot mention spotting without involving seperation issues. While there has been some very good info put out on exit order(diverdriver, et al) the real issue that I have yet to hear any civilian skydiver explain to me correctly is how you determine the spot. While knowing what the winds at altitude is nice, how do you make your calculations as to exactly where the spot is? Remember, the spot is a geographical reference point on the ground used to determine when to exit the aircraft. This has been arrived upon by doing the math formulas that take winds, freefall drift and canopy drift into consideration to subsequently locate that elusive "spot" that everyone speaks of. I have seen a lot of SWAGs at DZs that pretty much keep jumpers in the wind line and on the DZ but it's still a SWAG and I have yet to see or hear someone explain it without fidgiting when questioned.

Now lets actually touch on the spotting itself. This refers to the actions a jumper in the door takes to insure that the aircraft is indeed flying on the right heading and determining where that geographical reference point on the ground is in relation to the aircraft. Once you have calculated for the winds and located the geographical reference point on the ground you will need to ID that point prior to getting to it and may have to make corrections either left or right to put the aircraft directly above your "spot". this is done by looking forward into the direction of flight and identifing your reference point far enough ahead that you can give corrections and bring the aircraft in line with said spot. Once you have the Aircraft on the right heading and have finished giving corrections, if any, you then have to determine when to put your jumpers out or for you to go.

Now spotting can be done from doors and ramps of any airframe, some are easier than others but the principals are all the same. The actual act of spotting the aircraft and releasing jumpers will require that your line of sight is looking straight down at the ground. If you are leaning too far out you may be looking under the aircraft somewhat and could theoretically be anywhere from 100 to 500+ meters off either left or right on the ground than where you think you are. The same can be said if you are looking ahead at an angle towards the spot or if your not far enough out and your looking down at an angle. That is why it is important your line of sight is straight down. Several tricks to determine this are to use visual cues on the aircraft as a sight of sorts. This is especially helpful if you jump from the same aircraft or type of aircraft as it will allow you to obtain a familiar sight picture each and every time. These references can be a rivit, a bolt or even a certain scratch or nick on the door frame that you use to line your self up with.The important part is that your are square in the door or ramp. Once you have determined your method of lining up you need to do the head out to far and then back in too much to see the difference and ensure you do indeed have the right sight picture. Often times this will require you to get your head very close to the floor or to rest against the airframe. The best way to illustrate what I am talking about is to practice at home on a table and visually see the difference that a few inches in line of sight placement can make in your percieved perception of looking straight down.

Here is the drill: Find a table/bench that you can kneel on that is at least a few feet off the ground. On the floor, perpindicular to the edge of the table place a series of 3 coins(pennies) approx 1/4 to 1/2 " apart. This position will simulate the kneeling position most people are in while in the door spotting. Now line your self up with the edge of the table and peer over the edge at the pennies. Your goal is to see the middle coin, that is straight down(if you have placed the pennies correctly beneath the edge of the table). Now lean a few inches forward and notice the penny "under" the table/aircraft, now lean back a bit and notice the farthest out penny. The goal here is to show you how head allignment is critical to precise spotting. Have your head too far out and your actually looking under the A/C, not far enough out and your looking down and out at an angle. Now look to your right after you have your head lined up with that middle penny(do this without physically turning or moving your head, move only your eyes) as if your looking forward into the direction of flight. This should give you an idea of where you are in reference to the "spot" and allow you to make corrections left or right until on the right heading. Once your happy continue to monitor the flight until your approx 15 secs from your "spot", this can be determined mathamatically as well or you can swag this a bit if your confident that you can get everyone out in time. If people need to climb out , give yourself a bit more time. As you approach the "spot" you continue to look straight down until the "spot" comes into your line of sight at which time you give the go or you go yourself. That is how you actually "spot" inside the A/C. Determining that geographical reference point or "spot" has to be determined by doing the wind calculations and plotting them on a map. This is another long and semi complicated explanation in itself. I will not get into it now but for those interested, I posted a while back a powerpoint presentation on how to do the wind calculations for both freefall(HALO) and crosscountry(HAHO) jumps.

I will caveat this by saying this does not mean you will never land off or have a bad spot even after doing the math, winds change and that can drastically change your "spot" in some circumstances. I have also yet to see any civilian DZ actually do any of the math I spoke of and I have talked to pilots as well as DZSOs and have not heard anything close to what I described. Which brings me to my point of GPS use. If you don't do the math to arrive apon a geographical location and you use whatever method you use to arrive at those coordinates all the GPS is doing is ensuring you arrive back at that SWAGed spot time and time again. All of this doesn't mean the method your pilot/DZ is using isn't viable since you've all probably landed on the DZ a majority of the time. If the "spot" is said to be X/10ths past the peas(landing area) do you really know what X/10ths looks like from altitude or more importantly, what your geographical reference is that lets you know you are indeed X/10ths past? Food for thought and a good idea to learn before your hanging outside the door guessing as to where your at.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[KATO33 0]

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These references can be a rivit, a bolt or even a certain scratch or nick on the door frame that you use to line your self up with.The important part is that your are square in the door or ramp.

I probably not the most qualified to contes this point or I could be missunderstanding you .... But I thought we are supposed to use the Horizon as a reference not a rivot or seam or scratch on the plane. Reason being the plane could be climbing, Banking or diving ... whereas the horizon is constant.

Also I printed your PowerPoint presentation very useful (but I'm a geek who likes Math).

Blue Skies Black Death

[LouDiamond 1]

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rivot or seam or scratch on the plane. Reason being the plane could be climbing, Banking or diving ... whereas the horizon is constant.

If your looking at the horizon there is no way you can determine if your over your "spot". Determining if the plane is wings level is dependant on your situational awarness and generally speaking, if your on jump run the plane should be wings level. Realistically, if you can't tell if a plane is banking/climbing/ diving and your in the door something is wrong. The planes attitude should be level while you are spotting since anything other than level can influence your perception. Determining if the plane is level doesn't have anything to do with the actual method of spotting, it is more of an implied task that must be completed before you can begin spotting.

The reference point I am speaking of is used when you are attempting to look straight down at the ground, much in the same way as one aims a gun, your sight picture needs to be consistent.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[KATO33 0]

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If your looking at the horizon there is no way you can determine if your over your "spot". Determining if the plane is wings level is dependant on your situational awarness and generally speaking, if your on jump run the plane should be wings level.

Ok let me clarify I didn't mean use the horizon as your spot but use the horizon as a reference make a perpindicular line from the horizon to your spot under the plane. You said yourself the plane should be level but it may not be. The horizon is constant.

Blue Skies Black Death

[LouDiamond 1]

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use the horizon as your spot but use the horizon as a reference make a perpindicular line from the horizon to your spot under the plane. You said yourself the plane should be level but it may not be. The horizon is constant.

Once again, making sure the plane is level is something you need to determine before you try and spot. Your not worried so much about the planes attitude as you are of looking straight down from the door /ramp at the ground. If the plane is in a bank while you are looking down and it levels out you will note it as you're spotting and make the needed adjustment to your line of sight to ensure you are indeed looking straight down at the ground.You don't want to look "under" the plane as that will throw off your spot. By looking under ,you are looking down and at an angle and at altitude that slight deviation can equate to several hundred meters on the ground depending on how skewed your line of sight is. Even if the A/C is crabbing harshly, the same principals apply, look straight down and attempt to move the airplane onto the right flight path so that as you look straight down the "spot" enters your line of sight. I don't think there is any situation where the plane would be in a bank or climb if you were on jump run. If it is then maybe there is something going on that only the pilot is aware of and he is taking measures to avoid.

Trying to learn spotting and the principals over the internet is far from perfect,which is why having some one in person to SHOW as well as explain how it is done is crucial.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[KATO33 0]

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Trying to learn spotting and the principals over the internet is far from perfect,which is why having some one in person to SHOW as well as explain how it is done is crucial.

Agreed and Thanx

Blue Skies Black Death

[dreamsville 0]

I guess that many first-timers (but I loved every second!!) wouldn't know the difference. However, the extra-pass inconvenience could be a money and a safety issue, especially if it's a fast Otter (and they are). Also, the local DZ often runs 2 otters, sometimes 3, if it's busy. In that case, fewer passes are better if they can be done safely without landing people out.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[diverdriver 5]

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I will caveat this by saying this does not mean you will never land off or have a bad spot even after doing the math, winds change and that can drastically change your "spot" in some circumstances. I have also yet to see any civilian DZ actually do any of the math I spoke of and I have talked to pilots as well as DZSOs and have not heard anything close to what I described. Which brings me to my point of GPS use. If you don't do the math to arrive apon a geographical location and you use whatever method you use to arrive at those coordinates all the GPS is doing is ensuring you arrive back at that SWAGed spot time and time again. All of this doesn't mean the method your pilot/DZ is using isn't viable since you've all probably landed on the DZ a majority of the time. If the "spot" is said to be X/10ths past the peas(landing area) do you really know what X/10ths looks like from altitude or more importantly, what your geographical reference is that lets you know you are indeed X/10ths past? Food for thought and a good idea to learn before your hanging outside the door guessing as to where your at.

Actually, I do the math. They don't call me Chris "GPS" Schindler just because I use a GPS. To quote Michael John from SDC "He's like a computer." The "spot" is not just one point. It is actually a cone of differing size and shape depending on the wind direction and speed. Most people jumping larger turbine planes will call the spot where the first group is allowed to climb out. The next spot is the last point a group can exit and still make the airport. I try to hook the jumprun before we get to that outer point.

You make distinction between military and civilian jump pilots as being something negative. I don't think that civilian jump pilots get the training that military pilots do. They can figure it out on their own if they want to be precise but they have to seek the knowledge. I once had a Air Force para-rescue team that trained at Monterey Bay ask me if I wanted to get into the reserves to fly C-130s. They wanted me so that I could spot them better than the guys they had. LOL.....then I ran into Johnny "Luv" Horton again at Nationals Eloy and he told a story of their commander going off on some 130 driver who put them off their target saying he knew a civilian jump pilot (me) who could spot better with a damn Garmin handheld than he could with all his charts. Made me laugh. I really don't see it as hard math. Maybe it's a Zen thing and I've just tuned into the air. Stan Musual (sp?) said that he could see the laces on the baseball when a curve ball was pitched so he knew where it was going. Bob Gibson was telling the story and he said his eyes got really wide. "You can see the laces?" Bob said. At least, I think that's how the story goes. I guess I just can "see" the air molecules moving. Yah, that's it.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[jimmytavino 16]

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Maybe it's a Zen thing and I've just tuned into the air.

Yes. Spotting is about spatial awareness,( knowing just where you are... in 3 dimensions)
....about anticipation, ( looking forward into the jump run)
....about giving directions (corrections, either verbally or with a light switch )
...and about receiving feedback, ( from the pilot and then from the aircraft ).
Trust your ears, (our sense of balance ) turn your head, and scan in all directions , as
has been pointed out.. learn how to look straight down....
In order to spot yourself and the entire load safely, it helps to know the visual image from 360 degrees around the drop zone.( if you are visiting, get help from a local)
It helps to know the plane and how it flies,,, on jumprun,,,( a C182 and a Beech King Air,,, are Not the same hahaha)
And it helps to maintain a good rapport with the pilots..... communication between loads can go a long way towards, "dialing in the correct spot"...
The worlds best spotter can be in the plane and that person Can put the group out over the place on the ground which is 'believed' to be the spot,, an intersection, or a treeline or a field...) but if the
"powers that be..." who CHOSE that location as the spot,,, are WRONG>>>>>> well then we have touched on a real important point..... make sure you have the correct "target" when the light goes on and the door goes up..
..For decades it was common to throw a W D I (wind drift indicator ) over the landing area
at the intended opening altitude... and then use the drift of the streamer, to "guesstimate the spot"...
today we can rely on accurate info. regarding ground winds and winds aloft...gps etc... but every jumprun, needs to have a confident spotter....
Once at an accuracy meet I went in the 182 for a 'ceiling check' /streamer drop. It was breezy, but it was my home DZ so i knew the terrain, and based on where we had spotted in the past on such days,,,I guessed at the spot,,, exited over it,,, with the WDI streamer
in my left hand, let IT go at 3 seconds, pulled my main at 8 seconds,,,, and then followed the streamer back to the DZ.... It landed along the outside edge of the pea gravel!!!!
and I followed it ,,, to a landing which was half a meter off the disc...

[diverdriver 5]

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..For decades it was common to throw a W D I (wind drift indicator ) over the landing area
at the intended opening altitude... and then use the drift of the streamer, to "guesstimate the spot"...
today we can rely on accurate info. regarding ground winds and winds aloft...gps etc... but every jumprun, needs to have a confident spotter....

WDIs are only good if you are exiting at 3,000 feet. The drift you measure is for the canopy ride. But what about the freefall drift? I think this is why we don't throw WDIs anymore. We know how to do it without them and because we are doing a different type of jumping now than in the past.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125