Decelerating before pull

[BenediktDE 2]

Hi,

today I experienced a hurtfull opening. At first I shouted at my canopy but later on the ground I remembered that I felt to be rather fast at pull time.

I was sit-flying at a speed of aprox. 150 to 165 mph until 4500ft. At 4500ft I went on my belly to decelerate - no track since I was on my own.
Now my ProTrack tells me that on the moment I went on my belly I startet to accelerate to a speed of short over 170 mph. I had that speed when I pulled and I hope you can not imagine how this opening felt.
My weight with all equipment is about 230 pounds and I am 1,97 meter tall - so I am not heavy but still not an ambos in freefall.

How can it happen that I did not at all decelerate but accelerate when I go on my belly?

Find the ProTrack Graph attached.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[ccowden 0]

Huh? The way I am reading it says that you slowed from around 170 to around 115 starting at about 4,000 feet until deployment. Am I reading it wrong?

[BenediktDE 2]

It seems you are reading something wrong. The graph that goes down only is the altitude, the two ones that vary are the speed in SAS and TAS.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[ccowden 0]

Yes I see that, but doesn't the speed graph go up from around 13,000 then even out basically with variations until about 4,000 where it dramatically goes down to 115 at deployment?

[BenediktDE 2]

The graph start dropping fast at aprox. 3000ft since I pulled there. And ask my neck - the speed droped extremely quick. ;)

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[ccowden 0]

Your ProTrack does not read any speeds AFTER deployment. Your graph shows (hard to see exact on my screen) a sharp deceleration from about 175mph at about 3500 feet, to about 115mph at time of deployment which was roughly 2600 feet. According to this graph, you were doing about 115mph when you deployed.

[BenediktDE 2]

And how does my ProTrack know I deployed? By the decaleration that you see on the graph.

Please let's not discuss about technical issues of the ProTrack but about the problem I wrote above. I went on my belly at 4500ft and did not decalerate until I threw my PC at short over 3000ft. Maybe this can not be seen very well in the picture, but I have the data of the jump here.

Anybody has an idea what might have caused this speed until deployment?

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[ccowden 0]

You are reading your ProTrack wrong. What you THINK the altitudes were when you went on your belly and when you deployed are NOT what the ProTrack is saying they were. That little red 'X' is where the ProTrack reads a SUDDEN deceleration at time of deployment. The spped at the time of deployment was around 115 mph, which you decelerated to from 175 mph when you went to your belly. But you obviously don't want to hear that and know more than I do about them, so good luck with finding your answers.

[BenediktDE 2]

Are you sure my Altimeter an the Data the ProTrack reads can differ up to 1500ft?
I am wearing the pro-track in my full-face helmet and expect it to be not very accurate but can it realy make such a difference?

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[ccowden 0]

No, but what your brain is computing and what the freefall computer are CAN. From the time you look at your altimeter, to the time you do something, to the time you begin to decelerate, can easily take a few seconds. Especially when you are going at speeds of 175 mph. A few seconds in freefall can add up to 1,000 feet REAL quick. So, what you are "reading" and remembering as exact altitudes of going to your belly and deploying, might not be where they actually were. But what this graph is saying and what YOU are saying are two different things. The ProTrack reads that there WAS a gradual deceleration from the time you went to your belly to the time of deployment and that your were going approx. 115 mph at the time of deployment. The only discrepancy is what you THINK happened and not what the ProTrack actually is showing. The speed graph STOPS reading when you deployed. The fall from 175 mph to 115 mph is the deceleration BEFORE deployment.

[BenediktDE 2]

So the extreme hard opening was no result of fast freefall speed but had other reasons? To bad - thought I found a reason for it.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[ccowden 0]

Pretty much.

The reason you had a hard opening is simply because your parachute opened hard. Sounds overly simplified, but parachutes will do that from time to time no matter what we do. Proper packing and deceleration before pulling can help to avoid it, but you will never eliminate it. It is hard to speculate exactly why you had a hard opening, but it was most definitely NOT your freefall speed at time of deployment.

[Reginald 0]

What I’m seeing in the data is a speed of 175 MPH at 46 seconds into the jump and a saddle out altitude of 2,500 ft. at 51 seconds. I’ve personally found the ProTrack’s saddle out alt. to be a pretty good indicator (+ or – maybe 100ft) of where I actually saddle out vs. my wrist altimeter.

The key thing I’m seeing is that there is only 5 seconds between a speed of 175MPH and where you were saddled out. This implies to me that you were potentially going pretty damn fast when you deployed and had a fast opening.

Personally, I would not rule out a fast fall rate from being a contributing factor to the hard opening.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Ron 7]

Quote

Now my ProTrack tells me that on the moment I went on my belly I startet to accelerate to a speed of short over 170 mph.

That would be pretty much close to impossible.

Going from a sit to flat will slow you down, not speed you up.

You might want to wait longer next time between your flat and your pitch.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[redramdriver 0]

At around 42+-seconds you transitioned to your belly, that is when you actually speed up a little more then your Sit. After your transition, and your belly deceleration you were at approx. 115 when you deployed. Anyone see any different??

So, you bring your beer?

Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344

[TMPattersonJr 0]

Ok, for what I'm gathering from all the comments thus far:

You transitioned from sit to belly @ approx. 4500'
Your protrack is showing an increase of speed at around the same time(yes I've looked at the graph)

I'm assuming that your protrack is in your helmet, so depending on if you went from sit to "stand" to belly, or backflipped out of the sit you will speed up a little bit during the moment of instability until you actually get on your belly. Getting on your belly will slow you down a little bit, but it will not slow you down as fast as cupping air will. I've had one hard opening on a parachute that usually snivels for 1000' and I was doing the same thing that you were. I rolled over @ 3700' and threw @ 3000' and with a combo punch of hanging the nose on the canopy to speed up the opening a little and not slowing down after transitioning to my belly and I had a 300' opening.

Two things to note:
1. Slow down before you pull!!! (Flatten out, cup some air do as much as you can to decrease you descent rate)
2. Your protrack in your helmet is sitting in your burble during sit flying (air coming around your butt torso and arms) when you transition to your belly it is in much cleaner air. which the protrack may read as a dramatic increase in fall rate as it is trying to catch up to the new altitude it is now reading. I wear my neptune on my hand and just it being in the burble of my hand has given me some wierd readings before.

Always remember you can look at the data all day long but if you don't follow note number one your openings will continue to be hard!!!

(Some of this is my opinion, you can tear it to bits if you want but your the one who posted on a public forum)

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[BenediktDE 2]

Thank you for you posting!
As I read your posting I think I did not cup much air since it was the last jump of the day and my arms were rather tired already.
In future I will look more at my body position to slow down enough. I won't tell that to my masseur who gets some business when I have a hard opening. ;)

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[TMPattersonJr 0]

Not a problem, I'm a "young jumper", but have been around the sport a little while. (23 of the 26 years I've been alive) so as soon as I read your post I felt i could help and gald I could. Have Fun, Be Safe!!

Mike

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www.PLabsInc.com
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[ove 0]

you didn't break enough and deployed at high speed. the rapid des. from 170 to 115 is during opening of your parachute. most have hurt though;)

Do, or do not. There is no try.