Safire 2 vs Safire 3 vs Sabre 2

[StoppieJoe 7]

I’ve flown the Safire 2 and the Sabre 2. Going to be searching for a 190 soon and wanted to know how the Safire 3 compares? Anyone flown it? I’ve heard it’s more docile than the other two and has a shorter recovery arc... is that true? Which one of these platforms would best prepare me to go to a crossfire in a few hundred jumps?

Carpe Diem, Even if it kills me -- "Dead Poet's Society"

"Are you getting into trouble over there?" --- "Nothing that I'm going to admit to!"
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[Maddingo 21]

Yes, the recovery arc is very short.

[imac 1]

I've got about 100 jumps on the Safire3 (current canopy), 150 jumps on the Sabre 2 and about 40 jumps on the Safire 2. All in the 170 range, about 1.38WL.
Safire 2 to 3, I would say the 3's recovery arc is a little longer than the 2, but only just. It's more responsive to input IMO than the 2 was. I prefer it to the Safire 2 (and Sabre 2), but that may just be me. The Safire 2 is a great canopy nonetheless.
The Sabre 2 in my opinion was a different kettle of fish. Great canopy, longer recovery arc than the Safire's, fun to fly as well, but...not quite as docile as the Safire's if I messed up. It would let me know ;)
I don't have the experience or real jump numbers to call it, but in my lowly opinion I would reckon the Sabre 2 would be more likely the better learning canopy to transition to the Crossfire - when you have the jump numbers and the relevant experience. Speak to your canopy coach for their input as well. NZ Aerosports doesn't recommend 500 jumps minimum on a semi-elliptical canopy for nothing before transitioning to the Crossfire 3. it's fully elliptical so will be completely different to anything you've flown?

[nicotrico 0]

Interesting post - worth following because there seems to be very little info around on the Safire 3

www.blueskysuits.com

[imac 1]

nicotrico

Interesting post - worth following because there seems to be very little info around on the Safire 3

It's a damn fine canopy. Very responsive when you want it to be (toggle,front, rear, harness), but if you want to hang out while the others jostle for position in the pattern, it'll do that quite happily. Only had nice openings so far (OK, one line twist but that was my fault). Medium-ish recovery arc (more towards the shorter side of medium).
IMO it handles better in turbulent conditions (compared to the Safire 2 and Sabre 2 which I've flown). Not sure if that's down to that "powerband" spanning the nose, but I'm definitely more comfortable with this canopy when it gets bumpy than the others mentioned.
I like it, I think if you have the chance to demo one, go for it.

[nicotrico 0]

imac

***
Interesting post - worth following because there seems to be very little info around on the Safire 3

It's a damn fine canopy. Very responsive when you want it to be (toggle,front, rear, harness), but if you want to hang out while the others jostle for position in the pattern, it'll do that quite happily. Only had nice openings so far (OK, one line twist but that was my fault). Medium-ish recovery arc (more towards the shorter side of medium).
IMO it handles better in turbulent conditions (compared to the Safire 2 and Sabre 2 which I've flown). Not sure if that's down to that "powerband" spanning the nose, but I'm definitely more comfortable with this canopy when it gets bumpy than the others mentioned.
I like it, I think if you have the chance to demo one, go for it.

thanks for that

www.blueskysuits.com

[Westerly 61]

nicotrico

******
Interesting post - worth following because there seems to be very little info around on the Safire 3

It's a damn fine canopy. Very responsive when you want it to be (toggle,front, rear, harness), but if you want to hang out while the others jostle for position in the pattern, it'll do that quite happily. Only had nice openings so far (OK, one line twist but that was my fault). Medium-ish recovery arc (more towards the shorter side of medium).
IMO it handles better in turbulent conditions (compared to the Safire 2 and Sabre 2 which I've flown). Not sure if that's down to that "powerband" spanning the nose, but I'm definitely more comfortable with this canopy when it gets bumpy than the others mentioned.
I like it, I think if you have the chance to demo one, go for it.

thanks for that Any tricks on how you pack yours to get consistent soft openings?
They tend to be soft on their own. I always felt that how a canopy opens is more a function of the design than how you pack it anyway. Sure, there are some tricks you can do to try to make the canopy open harder or softer, but overall the canopy itself is the most important function in how it opens over many openings over the course of time.

Anyway, just make sure the slider is quartered and against the slider stops prior to closing the bag. Make sure you have adequate stow tension on the rubber bands (most companies seem to recommend double stowing).

[nicotrico 0]

Westerly

*********
Interesting post - worth following because there seems to be very little info around on the Safire 3

It's a damn fine canopy. Very responsive when you want it to be (toggle,front, rear, harness), but if you want to hang out while the others jostle for position in the pattern, it'll do that quite happily. Only had nice openings so far (OK, one line twist but that was my fault). Medium-ish recovery arc (more towards the shorter side of medium).
IMO it handles better in turbulent conditions (compared to the Safire 2 and Sabre 2 which I've flown). Not sure if that's down to that "powerband" spanning the nose, but I'm definitely more comfortable with this canopy when it gets bumpy than the others mentioned.
I like it, I think if you have the chance to demo one, go for it.

thanks for that Any tricks on how you pack yours to get consistent soft openings?
They tend to be soft on their own. I always felt that how a canopy opens is more a function of the design than how you pack it anyway. Sure, there are some tricks you can do to try to make the canopy open harder or softer, but overall the canopy itself is the most important function in how it opens over many openings over the course of time.

Anyway, just make sure the slider is quartered and against the slider stops prior to closing the bag. Make sure you have adequate stow tension on the rubber bands (most companies seem to recommend double stowing).

thanks :) I was wondering - there is this controversy about double stowing - its said that it can lead to bag lock and reduces the lifespan of the lines to half due to the increased friction... PD claim thousands of jumps without bag lock, but I guess everybody makes their won choices :)

www.blueskysuits.com

[imac 1]

thanks for that
Nothing special, normal pack-job. I don't roll the nose or anything, just push it in at the appropriate stage. Yes, make sure your slider is properly quartered and against the stops.

My first couple of openings were reaaaaaaalllly long....but now they've gone down to +- 600' mark. Doesn't whack me around or anything like that.

Brake lines were long out of the factory, ended up shortening them by 4 inches. On my first jump when I did my checks the canopy wouldn't stall at all unless I took a wrap.

[Westerly 61]

nicotrico

************
Interesting post - worth following because there seems to be very little info around on the Safire 3

It's a damn fine canopy. Very responsive when you want it to be (toggle,front, rear, harness), but if you want to hang out while the others jostle for position in the pattern, it'll do that quite happily. Only had nice openings so far (OK, one line twist but that was my fault). Medium-ish recovery arc (more towards the shorter side of medium).
IMO it handles better in turbulent conditions (compared to the Safire 2 and Sabre 2 which I've flown). Not sure if that's down to that "powerband" spanning the nose, but I'm definitely more comfortable with this canopy when it gets bumpy than the others mentioned.
I like it, I think if you have the chance to demo one, go for it.

thanks for that Any tricks on how you pack yours to get consistent soft openings?
They tend to be soft on their own. I always felt that how a canopy opens is more a function of the design than how you pack it anyway. Sure, there are some tricks you can do to try to make the canopy open harder or softer, but overall the canopy itself is the most important function in how it opens over many openings over the course of time.

Anyway, just make sure the slider is quartered and against the slider stops prior to closing the bag. Make sure you have adequate stow tension on the rubber bands (most companies seem to recommend double stowing).

thanks :) I was wondering - there is this controversy about double stowing - its said that it can lead to bag lock and reduces the lifespan of the lines to half due to the increased friction... PD claim thousands of jumps without bag lock, but I guess everybody makes their won choices :)

Which is why you look to the manufacturer of your rig for advice. Every manufacture I have seen either recommends double stowing or has no firm recommendation. I am not currently aware of any canopy or rig manufacturer that recommends against double stowing and says to single stow instead. A properly functioning pilot chute could easily rip off every single rubber band on your entire D bag if it had to. If you have a bag lock either there is an issue with the pilot cute or somehow you got unlucky and the lines blew up and over the bag and made a major knot cluter f**k in the lines.

Double stowing might increase the chances of a bag lock slightly, but you can cut away a bag lock and not have a scratch on you. However, double stowing seriously reduces if not completely eliminates the chances of bag strip, and bag strip can kill you. If the bag strips off the bag early, you're going to have a very hard opening and that's resulted in very serious injury and in some cases death in the past. Here is a video showing what bag strip is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdR47kcMRz8

[Westerly 61]

imac

My first couple of openings were reaaaaaaalllly long....but now they've gone down to +- 600' mark. Doesn't whack me around or anything like that.

Curious what people really mean by that. How do you measure this? Is this the total distance you are falling while the canopy is out of the bag and sniveling, or does this include the time for the PC to inflate, the container to open, bag to lift off, stows to come off, canopy to inflate and then the full distance of the sniveling? Also, I presume you use a digital to measure. An analog wouldent be accurate enough.

[Maddingo 21]

Since we are talking about canopies I do not see how would you not understand that we are talking about openings after the "tug" on your body. Containers pretty much deploy the D-bag and lines the same way. There are no significant different flight chracteristics to a squared bag with rubber bands, lines and a round pilot chute.

[Westerly 61]

Maddingo

Since we are talking about canopies I do not see how would you not understand that we are talking about openings after the "tug" on your body.

You might be, it doesent mean the other guy is. I've heard tons of people say 'blah takes about 500' to open' and then when I ask them how they would actually measure that, I have gotten everything from it's just a wild guess based on feeling (whatever that means) to a wide variety of more specific measurement techniques. Point being, it's not standardized and so I am always curious how people measure that. So how do you measure how long the canopy snivels accurately? I dont know of any reliable or easy way to do it. Looking at your altimeter is difficult as the canopy might start sniveling before you know it and then there is a reaction time from when you know it's sniveling to when you look at and process the information on your altimeter. That could take 200' by itself.

Altimeters themselves can measure this information, but I've viewed the information on my altimeter for the last 50 jumps or so and it doesn't match what I experience on the jump and so I question the accuracy of the data.

[Maddingo 21]

I like this sport because of the amount of feeling you need for it vs how much instruments you need to look at. So untill I start to feel the decelerating sensation on my body the canopy is pretty much not deployed. It does not affect my descend rate. I also never pull so low that 100 feet would make any difference. Untill I feel comfortable under it does it really matter?