Hate-crime allegations: four white students at San Jose State charged

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

Now, people who go out to specifically beat up (and kill) some faggots, that would likely be a hate crime.

Why do you hate bundles of sticks?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

keep in mind that hate criems are generally in th realm of what otherwise would be relatively minor convictions.

Here's a great point.

If these crimes warrant a larger punishment in your special scenarios, then aren't we saying that they are not severe enough in the general sense? I think so. That's the real problem, and fixing just the one symptom puts us farther from the real solution - value everyone equally and justice needs to respond accordingly.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Darius11

i read Sky an i am like oh i get what he is saying, i read rehmwa and i think wow he has a great point.

I like Sky's posts too.

Here's the thing:

You and I are walking down the road. Two guys walk up and sucker punch us in the back of our heads. They say nothing, and clam up during the court cases, etc. Exact same crime. However, in our town, there's a few loudmouths that are bugging the mayor about bad pay for equal work and sexism, and racism, and blah blah blah. The DA is spun up and elections are just around the corner.

My guy gets simple assault and x number of months in jail.

Your lawyer notes that you 'appear' to be middle eastern (even though you are now American) and makes a hate crime claim during the case. your guy gets simple assault for x number of months, PLUS he gets another x number of months.


Why is the assault on me valued less? (or yours more?) Everything was exactly equal, other than the external political climate?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 212]

Darius11

Quote

"Stick em up and give me your wallet faggot" - hate crime

Only if the faggot is homosexual

I like the debate between thees guys, i read Sky an i am like oh i get what he is saying, i read rehmwa and i think wow he has a great point.

Hate crimes should double the (punishment/rehabilitation time) given for the same crime without the hate attached. IE - Should be brought up to the next level.

I think it should be handled the same as speeding in a construction zone.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,145]

Quote

You and I are walking down the road. Two guys walk up and sucker punch us in the back of our heads. They say nothing, and clam up during the court cases, etc. Exact same crime. However, in our town, there's a few loudmouths that are bugging the mayor about bad pay for equal work and sexism, and racism, and blah blah blah. The DA is spun up and elections are just around the corner

Maybe here you are touching on a point as to why we might differ. Our DA and judges are not elected. Plus, in Canada at least, there has to be more evidence than just being from a different culture.

Just because somebody in culture A beats commits a crime against some one from culture B doesn't make it a hate crime. Nor can I recall this happening in Canada.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Police say the harassment ranged from displaying a Confederate flag and white-supremacist symbols

Boo hoo..... Free speech. I don't feel 'harassed' when someone black wears a "black power" shirt.

Quote

putting a bicycle lock around his neck

Then arrest them for assault. If they did it, I have no problem with them going to jail for it.

[Darius11 12]

rehmwa

*** i read Sky an i am like oh i get what he is saying, i read rehmwa and i think wow he has a great point.

I like Sky's posts too.

Here's the thing:

You and I are walking down the road. Two guys walk up and sucker punch us in the back of our heads. They say nothing, and clam up during the court cases, etc. Exact same crime. However, in our town, there's a few loudmouths that are bugging the mayor about bad pay for equal work and sexism, and racism, and blah blah blah. The DA is spun up and elections are just around the corner.

My guy gets simple assault and x number of months in jail.

Your lawyer notes that you 'appear' to be middle eastern (even though you are now American) and makes a hate crime claim during the case. your guy gets simple assault for x number of months, PLUS he gets another x number of months.


Why is the assault on me valued less? (or yours more?) Everything was exactly equal, other than the external political climate?

I honestly see both your points.

I think assault is assault and more in agreement with you. I see what you mean, that would make you not be valued as much because your not a minority. Therefore saying that the same crime is less of a crime on you because your white.
That makes no sense.

What if its just a hate crime by that i mean no other crime.

I just stand out side on public road with a sign that says go back to Africa Niggers? Is that a hate crime or freedom of speech?

IF i am holding this sign in my neighborhood to my black neighbors at what point am i infringing on there right?

A part of me wants to say you have to stop that at the same time feelings are not protected by law.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[turtlespeed 212]

It's simple.

Brown people have more value.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

I disagree. Killing people is a crime.

Gassing a whole race because you believe them to be inferior is a whole different level.

Graffiti is a crime in most places. Spray painting swastikas on a synagogue is another thing.

I disagree.

If a person spray paints "Kilroy was here" or "Kill Jews" they have done the SAME act. The only difference was the motivation. If a person is killed because a criminal wanted his wallet or a person is killed because the attacker didn't like (White/black.gay/Jews...Whatever). The same crime has happened.

Quote

I don't have an issue with the concept of hate crimes.

The problem is if one race is accused of "Hate crimes" for something and not the other way around. For example, the media tried to make Martin case a "Hate Crime" but they are doing nothing about Lane's case. (Bonus points if you can tell me who Martin and Lane are..... I'd bet that without using Google, you will only know one of the cases off the top of your head..... And that is kinda the point of my argument.)

BUT, is we hold the crime as just a crime... Then BOTH cases are about a murder.

Adding "race" just adds emotion.

[rehmwa 2]

DaVinci

Quote

Police say the harassment ranged from displaying a Confederate flag and white-supremacist symbols

Boo hoo..... Free speech. I don't feel 'harassed' when someone black wears a "black power" shirt.

***putting a bicycle lock around his neck

Then arrest them for assault. If they did it, I have no problem with them going to jail for it.

This is a key point.

This guy DID get physically pressed by those jerks. Their actions are the problem and those actions are verified and definitely out of line. And that should be enough to punish those guys.

But they are talking about how the room was decorated and what the guys wore.........instead of just about their actions.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Darius11

I just stand out side on public road with a sign that says go back to Africa Niggers? Is that a hate crime or freedom of speech?

IF i am holding this sign in my neighborhood to my black neighbors at what point am i infringing on there right?

It's all freedom of speech - if on public property and not infringing on anyone else.

(it's also stupid and hateful and impotent - people like this get attacked and then they keep on doing it. I wonder if they'd stop sooner and more effectively if people just gathered and pointed at them and laughed - rather than giving them the anger and violent responses they wanted in the first place.

((Puppies and unicorns - I even wonder how effective it would be if people went to stand next to him and just quietly starting sharing things about the 'individuals' in the neighborhood, real things, hopes and dreams, and were decent to him.))

Would it be a hate crime if someone attacked the guy with the distasteful sign???)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,145]

Quote

If a person spray paints "Kilroy was here" or "Kill Jews" they have done the SAME act. The only difference was the motivation.

I already addressed this upthread. Motivation/intent/thought is already a determining factor in the criminal justice system. It is the case with murder/manslaughter, shoplifting, etc.

Now claiming that motivation/intent/thought should have no bearing on crime is disingenuous.

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

I already addressed this upthread. Motivation/intent/thought is already a determining factor in the criminal justice system. It is the case with murder/manslaughter, shoplifting, etc.

Now claiming that motivation/intent/thought should have no bearing on crime is disingenuous.

and I addressed a very 'genuous' opinion that motivation/intent is a couple degrees removed from thought policing and pre-judging....(grouping thought with motivation/intent is disingenuous )

(just for completeness since they aren't following our discussion)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

I already addressed this upthread. Motivation/intent/thought is already a determining factor in the criminal justice system. It is the case with murder/manslaughter, shoplifting, etc.

Yes, and this is covered in so called "Hate Crimes" as well. If a guy goes out with the intent of killing a (insert here). Then it is ALREADY held to a higher standard than an accidental murder or a impulse murder.

There is no need to being 'race' into it.

I saw you skipped this whole section... Do you know who Lane and Martin are?

The problem is if one race is accused of "Hate crimes" for something and not the other way around. For example, the media tried to make Martin case a "Hate Crime" but they are doing nothing about Lane's case. (Bonus points if you can tell me who Martin and Lane are..... I'd bet that without using Google, you will only know one of the cases off the top of your head..... And that is kinda the point of my argument.)

BUT, is we hold the crime as just a crime... Then BOTH cases are about a murder.

Adding "race" just adds emotion.

Quote

Now claiming that motivation/intent/thought should have no bearing on crime is disingenuous.

Nope, I am claiming that it ALREADY is covered under the law. Accidentally killing someone and planning to kill someone are vastly different ALREADY.

For "Hate Crimes" to have any logical value, you would have to value one race over another.

[turtlespeed 212]

DaVinci

Quote

I already addressed this upthread. Motivation/intent/thought is already a determining factor in the criminal justice system. It is the case with murder/manslaughter, shoplifting, etc.

Yes, and this is covered in so called "Hate Crimes" as well. If a guy goes out with the intent of killing a (insert here). Then it is ALREADY held to a higher standard than an accidental murder or a impulse murder.

There is no need to being 'race' into it.

I saw you skipped this whole section... Do you know who Lane and Martin are?

The problem is if one race is accused of "Hate crimes" for something and not the other way around. For example, the media tried to make Martin case a "Hate Crime" but they are doing nothing about Lane's case. (Bonus points if you can tell me who Martin and Lane are..... I'd bet that without using Google, you will only know one of the cases off the top of your head..... And that is kinda the point of my argument.)

BUT, is we hold the crime as just a crime... Then BOTH cases are about a murder.

Adding "race" just adds emotion.

***Now claiming that motivation/intent/thought should have no bearing on crime is disingenuous.

Nope, I am claiming that it ALREADY is covered under the law. Accidentally killing someone and planning to kill someone are vastly different ALREADY.

For "Hate Crimes" to have any logical value, you would have to value one race over another.

So if the crime, say its just aggravated vandalism, isn't against someone of ethnicity, but rather lifestyle, or religion, does that make a difference?

What about children?

What if you just hate children?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,145]

Quote

For "Hate Crimes" to have any logical value, you would have to value one race over another.

I strongly disagree with this statement. hate crimes are not only against one race, or one group. It could be against any identifyable group. There is no juding one better than another.

I have also already stated that hate crimes tend to come more into play on otherwise minor offences. Murder is a rather extreme example, in which case the hate crime aspect is often not explored. Whats the point is he/she is already going to spend the rest of their life in jail.



And Iago, I also don't agree with your sentiment.

[skypuppy 1]

rickjump1

http://news.yahoo.com/hate-crime-allegations-four-white-students-san-jose-224243879.html "Four white students at San José State University in California have been suspended and charged with misdemeanor battery and hate crimes against an African-American student who shared their dorm suite. Police say the harassment ranged from displaying a Confederate flag and white-supremacist symbols to putting a bicycle lock around his neck."

Suspended? I guess this means there's a possibility they can come back.

Displaying a confederate flag is a hate crime? What about the confederate kepi I wear all summer long?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

rehmwa

***

Quote

Graffiti is a crime in most places. Spray painting swastikas on a synagogue is another thing.

You have a point.
i can see the difference in this example.
It would be more then vandalism.

Hmmm time to rethink this one.

I don't - graffiti is graffiti regardless of the topic - it's defacing another's property. (If the "content" incites other crimes - like assault, etc, then those are separate crimes that stand on their own and need to be addressed as they stand). How do you trial one case where the guy painted that swastika and the other case where an ignorant vandal spray painted something that 'kinda looks' like a swastika? at that point, you aren't working the crime, you are working on society by committing further injustice on the individual (first you punish them correctly for the act of defacing another's property, then you take out societal frustration upon the guy because you have no other target - one is justice, the other is a witch hunt - a lazy, political and childish witch hunt). How do you justify an increased punishment on one person for "potential" that he might incite a total stranger to commit a crime? Isn't the next crime the responsibility of the next criminal? It's so incredibly rife with unequal punishment under the law I'm amazed the concept every got any traction - but that's politics and ignorance in action.

I'm for punishing someone based on their actions, NOT on their thoughts, NOT on the actions of others. It's that simple.

Highly liberal laws punish people based on (what they, in a biased way think is) their thoughts. Highly conservative societies punish people based on (what they, in a biased way think is) their thoughts. Highly religious societies punish people based on (what they, in a biased way think is) their thoughts. If you look at it clearly - hate crime is a clear symptom of very extremist, very intolerant, societies.

"Hate crime" is just another way to try to enforce and control thought and morals beyond just responding to the actions of a person.

Assault is assault and should be punished equally. Why does it matter what's in the mind of the person that commits it? Why does it matter if the victim is one race or religion over another? The crime is the attack, not the (perceived) thought process. Anything else is pure bias and more "ism" preferencing. Down that road is a pretty crappy place that just reinforces what we want to evolve past in the first place.

The only logical responses to my position are "social engineering" type arguments. (I know, someone will note that punishing murder = 'social engineering' - that tangent is obtuse and redirecting and boring). So it come down to a person's opinion on individualism vs otherwise.

bravo. good post. Although I can see that some people are with you over it.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

turtlespeed

***

Now, people who go out to specifically beat up (and kill) some faggots, that would likely be a hate crime.

Why do you hate bundles of sticks?

They're talking about cigarettes, man, you know smoking's fallen out of favor, now. I mean, they don't want it in movies or tv anymore, even. That's a crime, man.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[rickjump1 0]

DaVinci

Quote

Police say the harassment ranged from displaying a Confederate flag and white-supremacist symbols

Boo hoo..... Free speech. I don't feel 'harassed' when someone black wears a "black power" shirt.

***putting a bicycle lock around his neck

Then arrest them for assault. If they did it, I have no problem with them going to jail for it. To me, these idiots were closer to being bullies. I think they need a lesson to get them back on track.

The knockout crowd has injured and killed people, and because they pick and choose by race (anyone not black), sure looks awful close to racial hatred to me.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[rickjump1 0]

There's no doubt the public doesn't know the complete story, but it would have been interesting to see these two together on Leno's show.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.