gun culture documentary

[skypuppy 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Again from my reading of that section it seems that no one can just knock on your door and search your house. If this is not the case than can you please tell me of some cases that happened? I am very concerned if we have in fact gone down this slippery slope.

Here is a link for you that should eliminate the hyperbole of soapbox posturing. You may judge for yourself regarding the interaction between Mr. Sansonse and the police.

http://www.wrps.on.ca/sites/default/files/Publications/SansonseReport-Final.pdf

Thanks for the link, that report clears up quite a bit of my questions about that case. If I were that teacher I would of probably done the samething if I thought one of my students could possibly have access to a gun. I would of passed the info on to the cops just like they did with the child's best interests in mind. Now what the cops did with that info is another matter all together. Mr. Sansonse also gave permission for the police to search his house so no need for a warrant. To me this was all a huge misunderstanding that got blown way out of proportion and as soon as people realized it everything was dropped. Again I will ask is there any cases that someone can reference that saw police or an "inspector" enter and search a legal gun owners home just because he is a legal gun owner?

That is probably the scariest statement ive read here, that you agree a 4 year old drawing a picture of a pink bubble gum on a chalkboard (which was erased without being photographed before any of this even went down) is justification for taking kids away from parents, detaining without explanation a pregnant woman etc.

There are lots of cases, from neighbor disputes to divorces, where unsubstantiated allegations against a legal firearm owner have led to unwarranted searches and even confiscation of legal firearms without justification. Just down the road from me the cops through a flashbang through a window and entered a house with guns drawn for no reason - the guy inside didn't even know the guys were there. He was held for a few hours before being released, and it may still be before the courts.

The guy who just got acquitted of firing warning shots was charged when people actually threw molotov cocktails at his house was actually charged with unsafe storage, even though he'd just fired the gun and then put it down inside the house while waiting for the police. This is assinine.

Another case, a guy getting ready to go hunting near thornton was putting his rifle in his car and someone called because he lived close to a school, SWAT showed up and arrested him, roughed him up and strip-searched him in the driveway!

That's two from within twenty miles of my house. How many you want?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

Quote

Quote

her father is a convicted felon who is prohibited from owning any firearms

Yes this is true Jessie Sansone has a criminal record (for a non-gun related crime when he was a young adult), he served his time and yes he is prohibited from owning firearms. Well all indications are that he has attempted to reform his life and least in my mind owning a nerf gun is not a crime. I didn't bring up his past because I was not aware that having a criminal record allowed the authorities to violate Mr Sansone's civil rights.

Want more? Bruce Montague purposely allowed his firearms license to expire in order to challenge Bill C-68 and how did the Ontario Government respond? They confiscated his house. Mr Montague never used his firearms in a crime and yet here the government was confiscating his property because he had the nerve to stand up to them. Then again the Ontario Government is not exactly the model for a well run Provincial government.

Want more? I can't remember his name but there was a terminally ill gun collector in Toronto's who failed to renewed his firearms registration while he lay sick and dying in a Toronto hospice. What did the police do? They broke down the door of his Toronto home, broke the locks of his secured gun lockers and proceeded to cart all these firearms away. Oh and want to know the real crazy thing about this story? Who was there to report what the police were doing on live TV? Oh it was none other than a CBC camera crew. The cops told the CBC about their confiscation plans ahead of time so that the CBC could be there to tell the story about what a horrible this man was for having all those guns in his home. The man has since died ... so he no longer has any use for his collection. But these are just a few samples.

But I am sure these examples are not good enough ...

It seems to me though, that he had heirs who wanted at least some of the collection, and they weren't allowed to have them. I have also known others who had guns given to them by their parents which were confiscated due to complaints by their exes (unsubstantiated complaints)./

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Here is a link for you that should eliminate the hyperbole of soapbox posturing.

The man was arrested for a drawing his 4 year old daughter drew.

That's incorrect. He was arrested after the teacher interviewed the child, the child described the gun in detail and then told her teacher that she had access to it at home. After that information was passed onto police was when he was arrested. That is much more than just drawing a picture. You really should read the report, educate yourself as you say about the case before you start stating things that are not true.

you're talking about a 4 year old - what a great witness, eh> How much credibility do you give her interpretation of events> And they never contacted the family about the situation before getting police involved. Frankly, the school board and the school and the cops should have been sued over this.

the cops and the school board are just praying this doesn't go any further.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

please tell me of some cases that happened?

- Jonathan Logan licensed firearms owner (Baxter, ON)
Arrested when some people claimed he was seen prowling with a rifle adjacent to a soccer field where children were playing when in reality he was no closer than 300 meters in a different field hunting groundhogs with the owner of the field's permission. Mr Logan was initially taken down on suspicion of operating a firearm illegally but when this trumped up charge was going nowhere, he was later charged with "careless storage of a firearm". And where was this carelessly stored firearm located? Initially the police searched Mr Logan's truck, and did find a firearm in it. But it was properly stored as the law requires. No the police found the firearm in question in Mr Logan's basement, and it was an inoperable dismantled firearm they found after they entered the home illegally all in front of Mr Logan's distraught wife and crying children. In 2006 Mr Logan was acquitted on all charges by a Provincial Court Judge who ruled the police take down and public strip search of the Baxter man was unconstitutional and illegal. Well at least the end of the story ended well. But Mr Logan and his family had to endure great emotional and financial legal costs in this ordeal for a crime he did not commit.
http://www.lufa.ca/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=5747

- Lawrence Manzer licensed firearms owner and retired member of the Canadian Armed Forces as well as his neighbour Brian Fox (both from Burton, NB) were both arrested after they confronted three drunken teenagers who were vandalizing Mr Fox's property and disturbing the neighbourhood at 2:30 in the morning. Mr Fox was charged with assault for physically apprehending one of the drunken teens (his charges were dropped before he went to court) while Lawrence Menzer was charged with "Pointing a Firearm". Mr Menzer's case went to a court of law where the Judge ruled "Lawrence Menzer's Charter of Rights were violated by the RCMP" and the judge declared the case a mistrial. Another story that ends well, but only after Mr Menzer is subjected to great emotional and financial costs to fight his legal battles. Oh and there is no mention as to whether the police had a warrant or not when they arrested Mr Menser. If you want to nitpick I am not sure this case meets your requirements, but there it is. Another licensed firearms owner with a good record being abused by the system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5xnTZEj17I
http://christopherdiarmani.com/2979/police-state/lawrence-manzer-case/lawrence-manzer-case-ends-abruptly-in-a-mistrial/

Of course the highest profile case going on right now is that of Ian Thomson who also was recently acquitted. I don't believe Mr Thomson's case involved an illegal search, it was just another case where a licensed firearms owner was abused by the law. But as in Jonathan Logan's case there are cases where the police have conducted illegal searches. However they are often harder to find on the internet because you have to realize these are legal cases (some that are still before the courts) and in many case details are purposely omitted from the eyes of the internet when legal matters are still to be heard. But they are out there.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[aphid 0]

Quote

Quote

please tell me of some cases that happened?

- Jonathan Logan licensed firearms owner (Baxter, ON)
Arrested when some people claimed he was seen prowling with a rifle adjacent to a soccer field where children were playing when in reality he was no closer than 300 meters in a different field hunting groundhogs with the owner of the field's permission. Mr Logan was initially taken down on suspicion of operating a firearm illegally but when this trumped up charge was going nowhere, he was later charged with "careless storage of a firearm". And where was this carelessly stored firearm located? Initially the police searched Mr Logan's truck, and did find a firearm in it. But it was properly stored as the law requires. No the police found the firearm in question in Mr Logan's basement, and it was an inoperable dismantled firearm they found after they entered the home illegally all in front of Mr Logan's distraught wife and crying children. In 2006 Mr Logan was acquitted on all charges by a Provincial Court Judge who ruled the police take down and public strip search of the Baxter man was unconstitutional and illegal. Well at least the end of the story ended well. But Mr Logan and his family had to endure great emotional and financial legal costs in this ordeal for a crime he did not commit.
http://www.lufa.ca/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=5747

- Lawrence Manzer licensed firearms owner and retired member of the Canadian Armed Forces as well as his neighbour Brian Fox (both from Burton, NB) were both arrested after they confronted three drunken teenagers who were vandalizing Mr Fox's property and disturbing the neighbourhood at 2:30 in the morning. Mr Fox was charged with assault for physically apprehending one of the drunken teens (his charges were dropped before he went to court) while Lawrence Menzer was charged with "Pointing a Firearm". Mr Menzer's case went to a court of law where the Judge ruled "Lawrence Menzer's Charter of Rights were violated by the RCMP" and the judge declared the case a mistrial. Another story that ends well, but only after Mr Menzer is subjected to great emotional and financial costs to fight his legal battles. Oh and there is no mention as to whether the police had a warrant or not when they arrested Mr Menser. If you want to nitpick I am not sure this case meets your requirements, but there it is. Another licensed firearms owner with a good record being abused by the system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5xnTZEj17I
http://christopherdiarmani.com/2979/police-state/lawrence-manzer-case/lawrence-manzer-case-ends-abruptly-in-a-mistrial/

Of course the highest profile case going on right now is that of Ian Thomson who also was recently acquitted. I don't believe Mr Thomson's case involved an illegal search, it was just another case where a licensed firearms owner was abused by the law. But as in Jonathan Logan's case there are cases where the police have conducted illegal searches. However they are often harder to find on the internet because you have to realize these are legal cases (some that are still before the courts) and in many case details are purposely omitted from the eyes of the internet when legal matters are still to be heard. But they are out there.

Again, attempting to remove the emotional hyperbole...

#1: Jonathon Login:
http://www.ontariocourts.ca/search-canlii/ocj-en.htm

Reading the the judges summation, it appears the incident started properly but went downhill after. He criticized them for weak police communication and investigative skills. Yes, they screwed the pooch and the man was exonerated.

#2: Lawrence Manzer:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/07/15/mistrial-declared-in-case-of-n-b-man-who-fended-off-intruders-with-shotgun/

"Judge Andrew LeMesurier declared the mistrial mid-way through the first day of the court hearing, saying Crown attorneys missed the deadline to prosecute the case by six weeks. It was an error that happened in October 2010, the judge noted, but wasn’t considered by the courts until Thursday." (Further) "The only reason for this mistrial is due to this technicality,” he said. 'It doesn’t vindicate, nor does it condemn his actions, so in that sense there is some limbo'."

I don't think a mistrial constitutes proof that the defendant was abused. Or not. Or guilty or acquitted for that matter.

#3: "Of course the highest profile case going on right now is that of Ian Thomson who also was recently acquitted."
http://www.cfi-icaf.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=514:two-charges-dropped-against-ian-thomson-two-others-to-be-dealt-with-later&catid=165:st-catharines-standard&Itemid=31

"Two charges dropped against Ian Thomson, two others to be dealt with later."

I don't think this constitutes an acquittal. Yet.

Okay. Could you bring the rhetoric down just a notch please. I think most everybody is willing to listen. But it helps some of us to listen to your points if they're not couched in emotional language.

Again, I have no dog in this fight. I do think the police screw up and over-reach occasionally. Absolutely. Is there evidence that supports the claim that legal gun-owners in Canada are being singled out for mistreatment? More negative encounters with police than any other segment of society? I find it difficult to believe that. But I am open to correction without hysteria.

Do the courts seem to do a decent job of correcting police improprieties? There is some evidence above that they in fact do.

Do some gun-owners feel pressured? Very likely. I don't know if it's generated from real influence, or if it's just an internal emotion within the perceived-persecuted.

John

PS: Anybody else heading out Monday for the Cabo Boogie? WHOOT WHOOT!

J

[quack 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

please tell me of some cases that happened?

- Jonathan Logan licensed firearms owner (Baxter, ON)
Arrested when some people claimed he was seen prowling with a rifle adjacent to a soccer field where children were playing when in reality he was no closer than 300 meters in a different field hunting groundhogs with the owner of the field's permission. Mr Logan was initially taken down on suspicion of operating a firearm illegally but when this trumped up charge was going nowhere, he was later charged with "careless storage of a firearm". And where was this carelessly stored firearm located? Initially the police searched Mr Logan's truck, and did find a firearm in it. But it was properly stored as the law requires. No the police found the firearm in question in Mr Logan's basement, and it was an inoperable dismantled firearm they found after they entered the home illegally all in front of Mr Logan's distraught wife and crying children. In 2006 Mr Logan was acquitted on all charges by a Provincial Court Judge who ruled the police take down and public strip search of the Baxter man was unconstitutional and illegal. Well at least the end of the story ended well. But Mr Logan and his family had to endure great emotional and financial legal costs in this ordeal for a crime he did not commit.
http://www.lufa.ca/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=5747

- Lawrence Manzer licensed firearms owner and retired member of the Canadian Armed Forces as well as his neighbour Brian Fox (both from Burton, NB) were both arrested after they confronted three drunken teenagers who were vandalizing Mr Fox's property and disturbing the neighbourhood at 2:30 in the morning. Mr Fox was charged with assault for physically apprehending one of the drunken teens (his charges were dropped before he went to court) while Lawrence Menzer was charged with "Pointing a Firearm". Mr Menzer's case went to a court of law where the Judge ruled "Lawrence Menzer's Charter of Rights were violated by the RCMP" and the judge declared the case a mistrial. Another story that ends well, but only after Mr Menzer is subjected to great emotional and financial costs to fight his legal battles. Oh and there is no mention as to whether the police had a warrant or not when they arrested Mr Menser. If you want to nitpick I am not sure this case meets your requirements, but there it is. Another licensed firearms owner with a good record being abused by the system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5xnTZEj17I
http://christopherdiarmani.com/2979/police-state/lawrence-manzer-case/lawrence-manzer-case-ends-abruptly-in-a-mistrial/

Of course the highest profile case going on right now is that of Ian Thomson who also was recently acquitted. I don't believe Mr Thomson's case involved an illegal search, it was just another case where a licensed firearms owner was abused by the law. But as in Jonathan Logan's case there are cases where the police have conducted illegal searches. However they are often harder to find on the internet because you have to realize these are legal cases (some that are still before the courts) and in many case details are purposely omitted from the eyes of the internet when legal matters are still to be heard. But they are out there.

Again, attempting to remove the emotional hyperbole...

#1: Jonathon Login:
http://www.ontariocourts.ca/search-canlii/ocj-en.htm

Reading the the judges summation, it appears the incident started properly but went downhill after. He criticized them for weak police communication and investigative skills. Yes, they screwed the pooch and the man was exonerated.

#2: Lawrence Manzer:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/07/15/mistrial-declared-in-case-of-n-b-man-who-fended-off-intruders-with-shotgun/

"Judge Andrew LeMesurier declared the mistrial mid-way through the first day of the court hearing, saying Crown attorneys missed the deadline to prosecute the case by six weeks. It was an error that happened in October 2010, the judge noted, but wasn’t considered by the courts until Thursday." (Further) "The only reason for this mistrial is due to this technicality,” he said. 'It doesn’t vindicate, nor does it condemn his actions, so in that sense there is some limbo'."

I don't think a mistrial constitutes proof that the defendant was abused. Or not. Or guilty or acquitted for that matter.

#3: "Of course the highest profile case going on right now is that of Ian Thomson who also was recently acquitted."
http://www.cfi-icaf.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=514:two-charges-dropped-against-ian-thomson-two-others-to-be-dealt-with-later&catid=165:st-catharines-standard&Itemid=31

"Two charges dropped against Ian Thomson, two others to be dealt with later."

I don't think this constitutes an acquittal. Yet.

Okay. Could you bring the rhetoric down just a notch please. I think most everybody is willing to listen. But it helps some of us to listen to your points if they're not couched in emotional language.

Again, I have no dog in this fight. I do think the police screw up and over-reach occasionally. Absolutely. Is there evidence that supports the claim that legal gun-owners in Canada are being singled out for mistreatment? More negative encounters with police than any other segment of society? I find it difficult to believe that. But I am open to correction without hysteria.

Do the courts seem to do a decent job of correcting police improprieties? There is some evidence above that they in fact do.

Do some gun-owners feel pressured? Very likely. I don't know if it's generated from real influence, or if it's just an internal emotion within the perceived-persecuted.

John

PS: Anybody else heading out Monday for the Cabo Boogie? WHOOT WHOOT!

J

I am. See you at YYC.

Hey! I responded to a gun thread on SC.

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[skypuppy 1]

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2011/04/11/17953511.html

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Reading the the judges summation, it appears the incident started properly but went downhill after.

It never started property at all. The police never should have arrested Mr Logan in the first place. He committed no crime. He is a licensed firearms owner and with the owner of the field's permission he was hunting gophers in a field. The police clearly violated Jonathan Logan rights the moment they decided to take him down.

You may not be aware of this and obviously it is not recommended to do this in our gun paranoid culture where the police are all too willing to violate the firearm owner's civil rights, but as long as someone is licensed and has all their paperwork with them, it is perfectly legal in Canada to walk down the street carrying a non-restricted firearm in the open as long as this firearm is not loaded and not being pointed in some threatening manner.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2011/04/11/17953511.html

From this story about the Barrie ON man being arrested:

Quote

"Turns out the weapons were properly registered, in gun cases, stored in a closet but police say the trigger-locks were not applied.

Woods was charged with five counts of improperly stored firearms and one count of assaulting his roommate."

A couple of details are missing from the journalism. Were the firearms "restricted" or "non-restricted". If they were "restricted" firearms, then there needs to be a double lock. The first lock is usually some sort of locked room, locked safe or locked cabinet and the second lock is usually a trigger lock. But if the firearms were "non-restricted" then you only need one lock and the locked cabinet is enough or a trigger lock. You only need one lock, not two. Of course there are three inaccuracies in this story (just showing the media's lack of knowledge of our firearms laws ... this includes the Sun).

1) Were the firearms "restricted" or "non-restricted".
2) Was the gun case "locked" or "unlocked".
3) They should be called "firearms", not "weapons".

If these firearms were "restricted" then yes they were improperly stored because there was no second lock. Or was the gun case unlocked? If yes then the firearms were improperly stored. But if the firearms were "non-restricted" and locked in the gun case, well once again here are the police violating the firearm owner's rights.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over