So much for the 'Land of the free'

[Amazon 7]

Quote

You still throw stones Amazon, but you fail to offer a better solution. Much like the Occupy protestors.

Good Luck

[lurch 0]

Ok. Just so we have it on record, that an actual law enforcement individual considers THIS

"police forced open their mouths and pepper-sprayed down their throats. Several of these students were hospitalized. Others are seriously injured. One of them, forty-five minutes after being pepper-sprayed down his throat, was still coughing up blood."

To be "Not bad at all."

Wow. Just wow. Forcing pepper gas down a kid's throat till he spews blood is "Not bad at all." "Standard procedure."

For a peaceful, if stupid, protest. In the "land of the free."

You think THAT, is a reasonable, proportional response to a bunch of kids blocking a fucking walkway and refusing to obey when told to move? Shove gas down their throats till they choke on their own blood? Thats fucking OK with you?

You cannot be human.
Thank you. You just made me more afraid of our government than I could ever be of terrorists.

I'd never BE a cop. Because the things I'd end up doing to the innocent would make me sick.

I'm also never a problem FOR cops. I know a few. The ones I know are good people. I DO have some clue what they deal with because I talk to them and I listen. I seldom get pulled over but when I do, (last time was an out taillight...I thanked the cop and fixed it) I'm never a problem because I don't DO shit that'd make me a target.
I don't DO stupid protests. I don't rob or make a public nuisance of myself. I'm civilized. I'm considerate... I'll put on flashers, indicate my intentions by pointing where I intend to stop, creep slowly to someplace I can see the cop can get out of car without getting run over, THEN stop.

SOME of us citizens you have such contempt for actually go out of our way to make YOUR jobs a little easier when you have to deal with us. And generally, -I- don't GET ticketed... its been like ten years... maybe my being polite and harmless has something to do with that. Or maybe because I don't usually drive like a lunatic, I dunno.

People aren't being a "bunch of pussies" they're asking the authorities to stop fucking treating the general public like inmates-in-waiting, subject to violence at the slightest sign of defiance.

Whitewash it all you like with statements about procedure and policy, but in a free country, disobedience or defiance do not automatically merit a beating.

And in this country, today, when a cop orders you to do something, especially if said cop is in a foul mood, scared or angry, if you do not jump to obey FAST you WILL get your skull cracked and a bunch of charges tacked on for "resistance" just to make damn sure you get the point. Vindictiveness as standard procedure because we cannot allow the public to think resistance of any kind will be tolerated.

This country is SICK... if there was anywhere to go, I'd leave. You think we don't know shit about police states? We're learning really fast, especially at the airports, and we're teaching the kids, too! Lie flat on your face with your hands behind your head till the stormtrooper tells you you're allowed to move and the drug dogs are done with your lockers...
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[ArizonaStone 0]

Lurch,

To your post I must respond. I thank you for being an upstanding citizen. People like you are not viewed as making our jobs easy, but as decent people. It's not whether our job is made easy or not, but whether the justification for being an asshole on the citizens behalf is warranted. If a cop approaches you and he is out-of-line, then you are justified in treating him as such. If a person is out-of-line, as defined by the law, the he is treated as such. I have been in many situastions with hardened criminals, that have shown more respect for me and my fellow officers than some average citizens. So, if a guy who has done a stretch for assault, multiple burglaries, drug abuse, etc and was beaten and sexually abused by his parents can be respectful, not a kiss ass douche bag, but respectful, then why is it so hard for the average citizen to do the same. That's all I'm saying.

As far as the words you quote, I quote:

“Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.”
- Benjamin Franklin

"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

-Benjamin Franklin

[Elite_Marksman 0]

Quote

Ok. Just so we have it on record, that an actual law enforcement individual considers THIS

"police forced open their mouths and pepper-sprayed down their throats. "

To be "Not bad at all."

Wow. Just wow. Forcing pepper gas down a kid's throat till he spews blood is "Not bad at all." "Standard procedure."

For a peaceful, if stupid, protest. In the "land of the free."

You think THAT, is a reasonable, proportional response to a bunch of kids blocking a fucking walkway and refusing to obey when told to move? Shove gas down their throats till they choke on their own blood? Thats fucking OK with you?

You cannot be human.
Thank you. You just made me more afraid of our government than I could ever be of terrorists.

I'd never BE a cop. Because the things I'd end up doing to the innocent would make me sick.

I'm also never a problem FOR cops. I know a few. The ones I know are good people. I DO have some clue what they deal with because I talk to them and I listen. I seldom get pulled over but when I do, (last time was an out taillight...I thanked the cop and fixed it) I'm never a problem because I don't DO shit that'd make me a target.
I don't DO stupid protests. I don't rob or make a public nuisance of myself. I'm civilized. I'm considerate... I'll put on flashers, indicate my intentions by pointing where I intend to stop, creep slowly to someplace I can see the cop can get out of car without getting run over, THEN stop.

SOME of us citizens you have such contempt for actually go out of our way to make YOUR jobs a little easier when you have to deal with us. And generally, -I- don't GET ticketed... its been like ten years... maybe my being polite and harmless has something to do with that. Or maybe because I don't usually drive like a lunatic, I dunno.

People aren't being a "bunch of pussies" they're asking the authorities to stop fucking treating the general public like inmates-in-waiting, subject to violence at the slightest sign of defiance.

Whitewash it all you like with statements about procedure and policy, but in a free country, disobedience or defiance do not automatically merit a beating.

And in this country, today, when a cop orders you to do something, especially if said cop is in a foul mood, scared or angry, if you do not jump to obey FAST you WILL get your skull cracked and a bunch of charges tacked on for "resistance" just to make damn sure you get the point. Vindictiveness as standard procedure because we cannot allow the public to think resistance of any kind will be tolerated.

This country is SICK... if there was anywhere to go, I'd leave. You think we don't know shit about police states? We're learning really fast, especially at the airports, and we're teaching the kids, too! Lie flat on your face with your hands behind your head till the stormtrooper tells you you're allowed to move and the drug dogs are done with your lockers...
-B

Maybe you should watch the video before you spew biased shit from your ass.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/19/uc-davis-police-pepper-spray-students_n_1102728.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk3|114240

The police did not "force open their mouths and pepper-spray down their throats."

The officer walked down the line of people sitting in the walkway hitting each of them twice from about 2 feet away with a can of pepper spray. After the second pass was completed other officers moved in and removed the people from the walkway.

Two people went to the hospital but were immediately released.

[lurch 0]

I'm actually going from multiple news sources two of which were referred to already if you'd bothered to look or read the links. Eyewitness acounts... I already saw the videos, multiple slightly varied accounts fill in the details of before and after.
Internet skepticism is a given... but multiple accounts from different sources tends to give a pretty good picture of the event.

The videos, as is so often said, do not show the whole event. If the kid coughing up blood 45 minutes later was purely invented color, the writers went to an awful lot of trouble to craft the story from whole cloth don'cha think?

Even if you just take the video alone as fact and ignore all eyewitness accounts and assume the basic spraydown was all that occurred, that video is STILL sick. The man calmly used a fucking chemical weapon on a bunch of kids.
If one citizen did that to another under any other circumstance it'd be considered torture. Needless, gratuitous cruelty.

Biased? I'm not sure how exactly I'm supposed to be biased. I haven't even chosen a side. Mostly I'm pro-law enforcement cause you guys are the only thing between my car and the neighborhood gankstas. But its getting awful hard to overlook how often these supposedly "isolated incidents" happen. Those weren't thugs. Those were kids.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[ArizonaStone 0]

Lurch,

They are not kids. They are adults. If being in your 20s is considered a kid in America, we need to grow up.

Pepper spray (oleoresin capsicum) is NOT a chemical agent. It is derived from peppers. You know, the same stuff that makes your mouth burn when you eat jalepenos. It is suspended in water by propylene glycol, the same stuff in your lotion.

You really should get your facts straight before stating a position which you are not prepared to defend properly.

It is this ignorance of facts that has college "kids" defending a position of which they have no true understanding and getting pepper sprayed in the process.

"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

-Benjamin Franklin

[lurch 0]

Hey 'Zona.
I understand.
I often wonder why the hell so many people have such a hard time from cops. I figure the people doing the most complaining probably were assholes to the cop -first-, then wondered where the hostile attitude came from. Because every time I've dealt with a cop I was cool and they were cool back. I find especially with cops, a little respect goes a long way. If I had to advise somebody with cop problems, I'd be like "Look, you don't have to be a suckup, but you could try not being a dick, is that so hard?"

I don't just treat cops with respect, I treat everyone that way. I figure, start with respect first, good interaction follows.

And, I have no idea why its so hard for the average citizen to do the same. Big piece of whats wrong with this country. Whatever happened to conducting ourselves in a polite and civilized fashion?

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Elite_Marksman 0]

Quote

I'm actually going from multiple news sources two of which were referred to already if you'd bothered to look or read the links. Eyewitness acounts... I already saw the videos, multiple slightly varied accounts fill in the details of before and after.
Internet skepticism is a given... but multiple accounts from different sources tends to give a pretty good picture of the event.

"Eyewitnesses" are among the LEAST reliable sources of evidence. Mainly because people are inherently biased, especially so if the witnesses were also members of the protest.

If you were to put 20 different people of random racial, political, gender, and age backgrounds in a situation where they would view an incident and then immediately separate them after the incident and question them separately, you will get 20 different versions of what happened.

Hypothetical situation:

In reality, a 20 year old Caucasian male with long hair wearing a red windbreaker and blue jeans steals a man's briefcase. The victim is wearing a black overcoat and black pants.

When you interview the 20 "eyewitnesses" you will have:
Some people say he's a young white guy.
Some people say he's a young white girl.
Some people say he's a young Hispanic guy.
Some people say he's a young black guy.
Some people say he's wearing a red jacket.
Some people say he's wearing a red shirt.
Some people say he's wearing a black coat.
Some people say he stole a breifcase.
Some people say he stole a purse.
Some people say the victim was a woman.
Some people say the victim was a man.

/Hypothetical situation

People are incapable of giving 100% accurate descriptions of a situation they witnessed. People naturally interject their own opinion and bias into any situation they observe.

Quote

The videos, as is so often said, do not show the whole event. If the kid coughing up blood 45 minutes later was purely invented color, the writers went to an awful lot of trouble to craft the story from whole cloth don'cha think?

In this case, the video does clearly show the entire event.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6GMmpgrAlE&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjnR7xET7Uo&feature=player_embedded

The first video is a little farther back from the crowd, but clearly shows the situation and about 6 minutes prior to the use of pepper spray. The second video is much closer and has an unobstructed view of the actual spraying.

As far as the coughing up blood part, there is no evidence of that other than what the media has reported. Between the person who was actually coughing up blood (if that really happened) and us is at a bare minimum, the person, the person at the media outlet they contacted, the writer of the article, and the editor of the article.

Go play "whisper down the lane" with 4 people where the message that is being transmitted is politically/emotionally charged.

Now, more realistically, the guy was coughing up 45 minutes later and told his buddy about it, who told his buddy, who told the reporter, who told the writer, whose work was edited.... you get the picture. Maybe he was still just hacking, maybe he had a pre-existing condition, maybe the pepper spray directly caused him to cough up blood, nobody but him knows for sure.

Quote

Even if you just take the video alone as fact and ignore all eyewitness accounts and assume the basic spraydown was all that occurred, that video is STILL sick. The man calmly used a fucking chemical weapon on a bunch of kids.
If one citizen did that to another under any other circumstance it'd be considered torture. Needless, gratuitous cruelty.

Based on the situation and the amount of force the police used, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this incident. The police were attempting to leave the area, the students were blocking their path and refused to move.

On the first video the officers can be clearly heard ordering the students to clear a path and warned them, both verbally and visually (displaying and shaking the pepper spray in view of the students) that there was an imminent use of force. The students still refused to comply with the order so the police exercised their right to gain compliance.

Quote

Biased? I'm not sure how exactly I'm supposed to be biased. I haven't even chosen a side. Mostly I'm pro-law enforcement cause you guys are the only thing between my car and the neighborhood gankstas. But its getting awful hard to overlook how often these supposedly "isolated incidents" happen. Those weren't thugs. Those were kids.

I did not intend that to be attacking you individually. It was intended to be that the reports you are quoting, even if they are from eyewitnesses, are biased. Quite obviously so when the police can be clearly seen to NOT be forcing pepper spray down the throats of the students.

[yourmomma 0]

First thing saying capsaicin is not a chemical is just fucking stupid. Secondly using a chemical (or anything in a aggressive manner) makes it a weapon. I.E a hammer is just a hammer till you smash someone's skull with it.
On to the next bit. Law enforcement persons are nothing but average citizens we as a society have given a distinct responsibility. When I encounter a dick in my day to day I have no right to inflict harm in anyway upon them. Cops are no different. Saying people who are dicks to cops are then responsible for the harm inflicted on them by cops is utter bullshit. When you decided to take the job you should have known the shit it would entail. I don't care how hard it is to go tell a family their kid is dead or how dangerous it is to pull over a gangbanger. That's the shit you signed up for. In your own words don't be such a pussy. Cops have the responsibility to "Protect and Serve" and should be compensated as such. A cop who abuses his power in any way should be treated like the criminals they are. More so they should be held to a higher level of conduct and larger and stiffer penalties for any breech of that conduct.

[lurch 0]

This is actually a fun conversation.

"If being in your 20s is considered a kid in America, we need to grow up"

(Sigh) Agreed. I was a street kid at 18. Self sufficient. Ran as a carny. Got jobs. Fixed my own damn car. No safety net. So I look at these ignorant-ass well-padded college students protesting a "right" to housing healthcare free education... (on whose dime, exactly?) and think what they really need is a reality check. Chuck em onto the street for a year with 200$ in their pocket to start, and see how they do.

Pepper spray... I know what it is, man, I got attacked with it once about 14 years ago by some latino ganksta thought I hit on his girl. Just because its natural doesn't mean it isn't a chemical, and that shit'll give chemical burns. Did to me, I lost skin to that shit.

This kid also Maced me first as his opening attack, kid was a real spray can variety pack... the mace barely slowed me down, just made tears and snot, the pepper spray got my attention.

Pepper spray -is- a chemical weapon. If it wasn't a weapon, it wouldn't be in use. And even by my standards it fuckin' hurts. Spray in the face= deliberate attempt to inflict as much pain as possible without blunt trauma.

Point is by the time I was 20 I could take a savage beating all day long and laugh at it. Life's rough, buy a helmet.
The kinds of kids that'd link arms and sing kumbayah in support of whatever foolish cause-of-the-week, aren't exactly hardened into adults yet. I bet half of em damn near strangled to death on their own snot and tears when they got sprayed. To them, that was most likely the worst pain they've felt in their lives, or will feel for some time. I bet they were dumb enough to be surprised, too. What were you expecting? These are not gentle times...

My position is, that the use of pepper spray against people THAT soft and harmless was an atrocity. They were pre-subdued, for christsake. What more could the cops ask for? They didn't need a fucking riot squad, they needed a fucking guidance counsellor.

A little indulgent humor would have gone a long way here I suppose, but now I'm quarterbacking and I won't do that.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Elite_Marksman 0]

Quote

First thing saying capsaicin is not a chemical is just fucking stupid. Secondly using a chemical (or anything in a aggressive manner) makes it a weapon. I.E a hammer is just a hammer till you smash someone's skull with it.

It is a chemical... just not in the way you think it is.

EVERYTHING is a chemical. You, and me, and our computers are just a specific set of chemicals arranged in a specific way. "Chemicals" are not inherently evil.

As far as the second point, there are times when police are allowed to use weapons. The state grants the police power to use force in order to gain compliance when the situation demands it. In this instance, the situation demanded force be used to gain compliance from the students.

EDIT -
I would also add that a weapon is nothing but a specific subset of tools. A rifle, a knife, a hammer, a can of pepper spray , a lever, a motor all have one thing in common. They are but tools, neither inherently innocent or inherently evil - they are inanimate objects incapable of having thoughts or feelings, they simply exist.

It is people who give the objects meaning and must select the appropriate tool for the job. A rifle would be very ineffective at building a desk, but a hammer is essential. A motor would be very ineffective at hunting for food, but a rifle allows one to eat. You could not use a can of pepper spray to lift a heavy object, but a lever makes it trivial.

Pepper spray is merely a tool, in the subset of weapons, in the sub-subset of less-than-lethal weapons, that allows people to gain compliance from other people who do not want to follow a lawful order.

[ArizonaStone 0]

Technically, yes, OC is a chemical. That would be the equivalent, however, of saying that someone who throws water in your face attacked you with the chemical agent, Dihydrogen Oxide. Consider the context and the usage of words when referring to certain topics. OC is not CN or CS. OC is a naturally occurring compound and is not a chemical in the usage that we are referring to. He is referring to Mace. Mace has been banned by law enforcement use as it is a chemical compound that does cause lasting damage in some cases, hence, the ban on its use by LEOs.

You are twisting words now Momma. I didn't say being a dick is legal justification for a beat down. Perhaps that is your bias kicking in. I have a lot of people who are dicks to me, I smile and they are on their way. It's part of the job. If that dick decides he wants to escalate the situation, well, he get what he has coming to him. If you force me to take you down, in whatever level of force that may be required, don't expect me to be gentle about it. If I am within policy, then I am justified in the level of force I used. If you get off easy in my application of that force, lucky you; if you get hurt more than the last guy that escalated a situation to that level, well, you asked for it. I know what is and isn't part of my job Mr. Armchair Quarterback.

If you think any kind of "knowing what the job entails" before signing up prepares you for the reality, you are misinformed. Whether it be law enforcement or the military, not even training prepares you 100% for reality. I'm pretty sure by your statements, you have never served this country that you see so fit to dismantle with your vitriol. Yet, you sit in judgement as though you have first hand experience.

"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

-Benjamin Franklin

[lurch 0]

"Saying people who are dicks to cops are then responsible for the harm inflicted on them by cops is utter bullshit."

Uh, yes and no on this one man. Think about it. Being a dick deliberately to anyone, like it or not, is by definition taking responsibility for the reaction said behavior may provoke. This is basic etiquette, come on.

In other words if I get all up in a cops face swearing and yelling and then get my ass beat, yes I am responsible for that outcome. My actions caused it. I would not have got my ass beat if I wasn't a dick.

It could be Aunt Bertha delivering the beatdown for all I care. People tend to respond that way to aggression. Being a dick is choosing a provocatively escalating hostile attitude. It is picking a fight. Its a cops job to handle people who wanna pick a fight.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[yourmomma 0]

If a dick walks up to me and mouths off and I give him his come uppins it's assault. That shouldn't change because I'm a cop.

[lurch 0]

Hmmm.
Ain't gonna argue about reliability of witnesses, but this account came from a professor in open letter to Chancellor,

http://bicyclebarricade.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/open-letter-to-chancellor-linda-p-b-katehi/

And comes with more video to back it up Here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxaLKsFdcjk&feature=share

The cops were caught in the act, on video.

Which does indeed appear to show cops holding people down in the process of "gaining compliance" and force feeding them the stuff straight from the can. I see faces, I see can jammed in faces. I hear clicking and hissing noises on audio (that could be anything from trigger pulls to rattling handcuffs really) and hear people gagging. Draw your own conclusions.

I'd imagine we can find this one on video from several more angles if we look hard enough. I have no reason to believe the professor writing that open letter would make up a different tale than the video shows and use the same video to back up the tale.
Perhaps we can find one with a nice closeup of the can nozzle actually being forced between some poor schmuck's teeth, if we have to really grind the point in. If that'll convince you.

In other words, his description of events appears to be fairly accurate.

You treat people like that, fears of violent civil unrest become a self fulfilling prophecy, but time after time Authority bounces its head off a brick wall... we never fucking learn...
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[ArizonaStone 0]

Nothing changes because a person is a cop, but it is much more likely that your are being the instigator in a situation where a cop has chosen to approach you.

If you in fact have a cop who is deliberately harassing you, then I would recommend that you report him. Believe it or not, the good ole boy club is not as strong anymore with the ACLU and video phones running around.

I have a hard time seeing a cop walk up to you and just start mouthing off. Unless what you consider mouthing off to be a lawful order directed at you by a law enforcement officer. I think you were reaching with this one.

"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

-Benjamin Franklin

[yourmomma 0]

I disagree. While water can and is used as a weapon, like you said the context is not there. Cyanide occurs naturally, are you quick to say its not a chemical weapon when used by an aggressor.

[ArizonaStone 0]

I see the cop with the can of OC pulling people apart. Was he supposed to drop the can on the ground before pulling the people apart? No, of course not. You never drop your weapon on the ground, especially not near someone who is likely to use it on you.

"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

-Benjamin Franklin

[lurch 0]

Agreed. But it's still HIS fucking fault for picking a fight with you in the first place. Your response may be disproportionate but he's still responsible for provoking the response to begin with.

And frankly, if -I- was a cop, and some asshole gets in my face because he wants to prove he can stand up to the man by being a mouth and/or getting aggressive with me, yes, I'd take extra pleasure in dishing out the requested beatdown as soon as Citizen Dick escalates enough to justify it. Best that I'm not a cop. As much as this incident pisses me off, I've seen a bunch of youtube videos where I admired the cop's restraint. So help me god I couldn't deal with people that stupid, day after day...

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[ArizonaStone 0]

Please read the link below before directing more questions at me regarding chemical agents and the context in which I was speaking.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/agentlistchem-category.asp#riotcontrol

"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

-Benjamin Franklin

[ArizonaStone 0]

Thanks for the debate guys. It was enjoyable. Until next time. Good night!

"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

-Benjamin Franklin

[yourmomma 0]

I understand a lot of the time the civilian is instigating. I have on several occasions delt with officers who treated me in an aggressive manner where I yes ociffer, no ocifferd and was presumed guilty of something other than my offense(speeding-not more than 15 over and always on the highway- and once overdue inspection.) If a person on the street would have delt with me in a similar manner the outcome would have been different. Many cops enjoy the authority we have given them, and wield it with an air of superiority they should not poses.

[Elite_Marksman 0]

Quote

Hmmm.
Ain't gonna argue about reliability of witnesses, but this account came from a professor in open letter to Chancellor,

http://bicyclebarricade.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/open-letter-to-chancellor-linda-p-b-katehi/

And comes with more video to back it up Here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxaLKsFdcjk&feature=share

The cops were caught in the act, on video.

Which does indeed appear to show cops holding people down in the process of "gaining compliance" and force feeding them the stuff straight from the can. I see faces, I see can jammed in faces. I hear clicking and hissing noises on audio (that could be anything from trigger pulls to rattling handcuffs really) and hear people gagging. Draw your own conclusions.

I'd imagine we can find this one on video from several more angles if we look hard enough. I have no reason to believe the professor writing that open letter would make up a different tale than the video shows and use the same video to back up the tale.
Perhaps we can find one with a nice closeup of the can nozzle actually being forced between some poor schmuck's teeth, if we have to really grind the point in. If that'll convince you.

In other words, his description of events appears to be fairly accurate.

You treat people like that, fears of violent civil unrest become a self fulfilling prophecy, but time after time Authority bounces its head off a brick wall... we never fucking learn...
-B

Sorry, on that video I don't see anyone being held down and sprayed. They are being sprayed as they resist being pulled off the walkway. None of the officers are holding them down and spraying them though.

[lurch 0]

I thought it wasn't a weapon.

Good point, though. You raise reasonable doubt. To me it looks more like aggressively trying to get in there with the can, movements that look an awful lot like thrusting the can forward directly into the juncture in the middle of the melee where faces were a couple seconds earlier.

But, thinking about it, it also -could- be that cop just trying to get narrow and squeeze in between a couple more people. The can happens to be in the forward hand.

I try not to even believe what I see. Appearances can be so deceiving. What I think I see may not be so. This ones a tricky call. Guess I'll have to either wait for further video or see how it all turns out in court to find out for sure.

To open discussion to larger picture, though: My thought is that this sort of incident, regardless of the specifics of it, is both symptomatic of and aggravating the condition. Even if cops are not in fact any more brutal than they used to be, and it only looks that way from Youtube and universal cameras, public perception seems to be that they are... and having incidents like this related to Occupy events in major cities everywhere only highlights it. This has to stop. Those protesters got a very real Civics lesson that beautifully illustrates the difference between theoretical "rights" whatever they think those are, and reality. They came for the education, they got it. Consider that a field trip. Theory says "Land of the free. Right to speak, right to assemble, blah blah." Reality says "Do as you're ordered or be met with overwhelming force."

Funny. I get the authorities' perspective. I do. Can't have this kind of disorder...mess, people disrupting things they aren't paying for... but if we're gonna be that way then we should just drop that silly land of the free notion. We aren't. Actually expecting it to be so seems silly and naive. Freedom doesn't work and we should just admit that, quit paying lip service to it and move on. Now what?

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[lurch 0]

Second video:

at 0:17 cop with can in hand turns around and hunches over seated protester, brings can into proximity to hunched, seated protester's head, commences physically vigorous activity, vanishes behind another cop.
0:30 second mark, individual in hood visibly being forced to the ground/held down along with others in group on the ground. Second cop to right of image wielding can appears to be using the can while cops on left continue to hold down/subdue group. Cop shouts something, then moves can in such a way as to appear to be dispensing something. A hissing sound is heard on the video at the same time a "dispensing" looking movement is made. The can is occupying the same space as the protesters faces were in the video not 5 seconds earlier. When video pulls back protesters are visibly trying to shield faces either under their own clothing or in one case, guys burying his face in the other guy's hood. Everyone visible in vicinity including whole second group on the right are trying to shelter their faces from it.

I don't imagine these people were coughing and seeking water just because those cans were displayed.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.