falxori 0 #1 September 5, 2011 I was kind of suprised to find this article in a Turkish newspaper... http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=why-golda-meir-was-right-2011-08-23 Quote Why Golda Meir was right It has been more than two and a half years since Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoan told to Israeli President Shimon Peres’s face, “You (Jews) know well how to kill.” Prime Minister Erdoan has also declared more than a few times that the main obstacle to peace in this part of the world is Israel, once calling the Jewish state “a festering boil in the Middle East that spreads hate and enmity.” In this holy month of Ramadan full of blood on Muslim territories, let’s try to identify who are the ones who know well how to kill. As the Syrian death count clicks every day to come close to 2,000, the Turkish-Kurdish death count does not stop, already over 40,000 since 1984, both adding to the big pool of blood called the Middle East. Only during this Ramadan, the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK’s, death toll has reached 50 in this Muslim Kurds vs. Muslim Turks war. This excludes the PKK casualties in Turkey and in northern Iraq due to Turkish military retaliation since they are seldom accurately reported. Let’s speak of facts. Sudan is not in the conventional Middle East, so let’s ignore the genocide there. Let’s ignore, also, the West Pakistani massacres in East Pakistan (Bangladesh) totaling 1.25 million in 1971. Or 200,000 deaths in Algeria in war between Islamists and the government in 1991-2006. But a simple, strictly Middle East research will give you one million deaths in the all-Muslim Iran-Iraq war; 300,000 Muslim minorities killed by Saddam Hussein; 80,000 Iranians killed during the Islamic revolution; 25,000 deaths in 1970-71, the days of Black September, by the Jordanian government in its fight against the Palestinians; and 20,000 Islamists killed in 1982 by the elder al-Assad in Hama. The World Health Organization’s estimate of Osama bin Laden’s carnage in Iraq was already 150,000 a few years earlier. In a 2007 research, Gunnar Heinsohn from the University of Bremen and Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum, found out that some 11 million Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, (0.3 percent) died during the six years of Arab war against Israel, or one out of every 315 fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent who perished were killed by fellow Muslims. According to Mssrs. Heinsohn and Pipes, the grisly inventory finds the total number of deaths in conflicts all over the world since 1950 numbering around 85 million. Of that, the Muslim Arab deaths in the Arab-Israeli conflict were at 46,000 including 11,000 during Israel’s war of independence. That makes 0.05 percent of all deaths in all conflicts, or 0.4 percent of all Arab deaths in the Arab-Israeli conflict. In another calculation ignoring “small” massacres like the one that goes on in Syria and other deaths during the Arab Spring, only Saddam’s Iraq, Jordan, the elder al-Assad’s Syria, Iran-Iraq war, the bin Laden campaign in Iraq, the Iranian Islamic revolution and the Turkish-Kurdish conflict caused 1.65 million Muslim deaths by Muslims compared to less than 50,000 deaths in the Arab-Israeli conflict since 1950, including fatalities during and after Operation Cast Lead which came after the Heinsohn-Pipes study. For those who don’t have a calculator ready at their desks, allow me to tell: 50,000 is three percent of 1.65 million. Golda Meir, the fourth prime minister of Israel, or rather the “Mother of Israel,” had a perfectly realistic point when she said that peace in the Middle East would only be possible “when Arabs love their children more than they hate us.” "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #2 September 5, 2011 An excellent article Ori. I've got to the point where I'm fed up of fellow Muslims pointing their finger at Israel and ignoring the actions of Muslims nations. Israel does have sins to answer for but its like pointing out the plank in Israel's eye while ignoring the Giant Redwood in the eye of Muslim nations. People (including me) have been swift to point out when Israel kills Palestinians but I've waited and watched here and not one person has mentioned that Syria rounded up 1,500 Palestinians recently and disappeared them. No one said a bloody word about that. Rarely do they mention that Jordan massacred the Palestinians in the past either. Or any of the points mentioned in the article you posted. In the South Africa apartheid era no one mentioned that many of the SA police were black, people didn't really talk about the black on black killings and mass murders. They focused only on the black white dimension. I see the same with Israel, no one mentions the Muslims serving in the IDF, or the fact that there are Muslim (1.2 Million) and Christian Arab Israelis let alone the fact that they are represented in the Knesset. For all my life I have avoided going to Israel because I did not want to support the nation in any way. If given the choice of buying grapes from Israel or pretty much anywhere else, I would buy from somewhere else. I'm not anti Jewish but having been brought up with only negative images of Israel I have become indoctrinated by the media and prejudices of those around me (more often than not white middle class socialists). Gandhi once said 'Be the change you wish to see in the world'. So having recognised that I have prejudices based on the images fed to me by TV and the prejudices of others, I have decided to confront my own prejudices and visit Israel myself to sit down and talk to the people there and to see for myself. Being a British Muslim I can honestly say I'm not looking forward to getting in and out of the country after what has happened in the past but maybe that is simply my prejudice too. Time will tell.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #3 September 5, 2011 Good stuff, 'rad. I wish you well in your quest.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #4 September 5, 2011 ThanksWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #5 September 5, 2011 I have only recently realized that you are Muslim. You are certainly one of the more mature posters in this forum. God's blessings to you and yours.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #6 September 5, 2011 QuoteYou are certainly one of the more mature posters in this forum. surely not sky(shoot them youngsters)rad?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #7 September 5, 2011 good post. Quoteno one mentioned that many of the SA police were black I did not know that. I thought they weren't allowed to. QuoteI see the same with Israel, no one mentions the Muslims serving in the IDF, or the fact that there are Muslim (1.2 Million) and Christian Arab Israelis let alone the fact that they are represented in the Knesset. Yes. unlike SA. Israeli Arabs has full civil rights in Israel. This is a bit off topic thought and I think we've discussed the difference between Israeli Arabs and West Bank Arabs in the past. QuoteI have decided to confront my own prejudices and visit Israel myself I think this is a good idea. Last March I led a group of 40 students from my University (only about 6 were Jewish and the rest were pretty much from every other faith/country/culture). We showed them the real Israel, including Arab and mixed towns, sites of historic and religious importance and sites that cause dispute. Not everything is perfect but its much better that what you might think. Anyway, I'm getting off topic here. I'll be happy to recommend an itinerary for you to follow. As for getting in, you shouldn't have a problem (I have many Muslim friends who visited Israel). Just come with a lot of patience and understand that they have a reason for asking so many questions. You can also sign up for a group tour, which will probably make it easier. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #8 September 5, 2011 Quote I have only recently realized that you are Muslim. You are certainly one of the more mature posters in this forum. God's blessings to you and yours. God bless you too Ron. When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #9 September 5, 2011 Thanks Ori, I spoke with my wife about it and we're heading over next year.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #10 September 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteYou are certainly one of the more mature posters in this forum. surely not sky(shoot them youngsters)rad? No evil bankers here... carry on."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
