Israeli plan to build hundreds of homes in West Bank settlement risks US anger

[Amazon 7]

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And we are still waiting for you to show us your tribal membership or are you illegally occupying lands you have no ancestral or any other right to?

no we're not - we're waiting for you to explain why israel is throwing away possibly its last chance for peace by building a few illegal homes. surely they're not that important to go to war for?

Why the hell should they kiss British or Palistinain ass yet again. They seem to have done a good job at KICKIN it and showing you lot the door.

You will
NEVER address the issue of all the murders and stolen lands it seems.

The Palistinians have had chance after chance after chance for 60 years to make peace.

There are many thousands of peaceful Israeli ARAB citizens some descended from Palistinians who had no desire to murder their Jewish neighbors as the Mufti of Jerusalem was telling all Palistinians to do. Many of their fathers and grandfathers fought aside their fellow Israeli's in 1948 and subsequent wars that their muslim neighbors in the Arab countries have been a party to.

Ask yourself this.

Do you think life is better for an Arab muslim citizen or Christian citizen who is Israeli in Israel compared to a Jewish or Christian trying to live with any sort of freedom in MOST of the muslim world.

[dreamdancer 0]

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With the opening-up of archival sources in the West and Israel, particularly the opening of the Protocols of Israel's cabinet meetings and the declassification of the Haganah Archive in Tel Aviv along with the IDF and Israeli Defence Ministry Archive in Givatayim, a greater insight has been gained into the events leading up to the creation of Israel and the events surrounding its birth, in particular with the publication of the study by Benny Morris: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.

"New Historians" have presented a viewpoint suggesting around half of the Palestinians of the exodus were purposely expelled by Israeli army, though this was not an organized policy. However, Walid Khalidi and other Palestinian historians, supported by Ilan Pappe, defend the thesis that the expulsions formed part of a deliberate plan.

The initial exodus and the current situation of Palestinian refugees is a contentious topic of high importance to all parties in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

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[Amazon 7]

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With the opening-up of archival sources in the West and Israel, particularly the opening of the Protocols of Israel's cabinet meetings and the declassification of the Haganah Archive in Tel Aviv along with the IDF and Israeli Defence Ministry Archive in Givatayim, a greater insight has been gained into the events leading up to the creation of Israel and the events surrounding its birth, in particular with the publication of the study by Benny Morris: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.

"New Historians" have presented a viewpoint suggesting around half of the Palestinians of the exodus were purposely expelled by Israeli army, though this was not an organized policy. However, Walid Khalidi and other Palestinian historians, supported by Ilan Pappe, defend the thesis that the expulsions formed part of a deliberate plan.

The initial exodus and the current situation of Palestinian refugees is a contentious topic of high importance to all parties in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

Good for them.. getting rid of enemies within who were fighting for the Mufti......

Still nothing about even more of the refugees who were Jewish.. murdered or expelled from across the middle east... they lost FAR more land than all of the palistinians did many times over.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Amazon has repeated pointed out that Jews living in the neighboring countries to the new Israel were likewise expelled, and in much greater numbers. I have yet to see any of you address that.

That belongs in another thread in my opinion. I, and the better part of the world recognize that the West Bank is not part of Israel and that Israel did not "win" it in a war. They occupied it after the war which is perfectly legal by international law but that is supposed to be a temporary measure. The occupying force is allowed to keep representatives of its military there for security reasons but it is not allowed to transfer its population (settlements) into the occupied territory. It is also not allowed to transfer the residents of the occupied territory out. Israel has played the game for decades now that everything was only "security related" and not a land grab. It's obvious that that's nonsense.

What is interesting about this thread however is that it's been good to get on record the reasoning for some people's justification for the treatment of the Palestinians. It seems to boil down to "really shitty things have happened repeatedly to the Jewish people. In return, I think it's ok that they do shitty things to another group of people..............over there.".

My view has been consistent. The United States officially, and rightly IMO, does not recognize Gaza and the West Bank as belonging to Israel. On the other hand we behave hypocritically in our treatment of the war crimes committed by the parties involved. Not only is that hypocrisy wrong but it's also one of the main reasons that some religious fanatics want to harm America. If we treat Israel and the Palestinians equally in the resolution of this problem then not only is there a good chance at reaching a peaceful compromise (in which neither side gets everything they want), but we take away the hypocrisy argument, which in then end, will save lives and a ton of taxpayer dollars.

[turtlespeed 212]

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And we are still waiting for you to show us your tribal membership or are you illegally occupying lands you have no ancestral or any other right to?

no we're not - we're waiting for you to explain why israel is throwing away possibly its last chance for peace by building a few illegal homes. surely they're not that important to go to war for?

Could you please cite the Israeli law that describes the building practices or methods or placement as "Illegal".

I'll wait.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[dreamdancer 0]

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With the opening-up of archival sources in the West and Israel, particularly the opening of the Protocols of Israel's cabinet meetings and the declassification of the Haganah Archive in Tel Aviv along with the IDF and Israeli Defence Ministry Archive in Givatayim, a greater insight has been gained into the events leading up to the creation of Israel and the events surrounding its birth, in particular with the publication of the study by Benny Morris: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.

"New Historians" have presented a viewpoint suggesting around half of the Palestinians of the exodus were purposely expelled by Israeli army, though this was not an organized policy. However, Walid Khalidi and other Palestinian historians, supported by Ilan Pappe, defend the thesis that the expulsions formed part of a deliberate plan.

The initial exodus and the current situation of Palestinian refugees is a contentious topic of high importance to all parties in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

Good for them.. getting rid of enemies within who were fighting for the Mufti......

Still nothing about even more of the refugees who were Jewish.. murdered or expelled from across the middle east... they lost FAR more land than all of the palistinians did many times over.

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It is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were forced or fled from their homes in the Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel between 1948–1951, and 600,000 by 1972.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_lands

how many does this leave stateless?

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[falxori 0]

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Israel did not "win" it in a war. They occupied it after the war which is perfectly legal by international law but that is supposed to be a temporary measure. The occupying force is allowed to keep representatives of its military there for security reasons but it is not allowed to transfer its population (settlements) into the occupied territory.

What if the country it was "occupied" from (Jordan) never claimed it back?
Based on your "international law", the only entity that has a claim on this land beside Israel is Jordan, not the Palestinians.

It doesn't mean I don't support a Palestinian state in the west bank (it's the right solution), but they don't have a "right" for it based on your logic.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[dreamdancer 0]

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Historian Tom Segev stated: "Deciding to emigrate to Israel was often a very personal decision. It was based on the particular circumstances of the individual’s life. They were not all poor, or ‘dwellers in dark caves and smoking pits.’ Nor were they always subject to persecution, repression or discrimination in their native lands. They emigrated for a variety of reasons, depending on the country, the time, the community, and the person."

Some Jews of Middle Eastern origin, including former Knesset speaker Yisrael Yeshayahu, former government minister Shlomo Hillel, and politician Ran Cohen state that they left their country of origin for Israel to pursue Zionist aspirations and not as refugees fleeing Arab persecution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_lands

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
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[Amazon 7]

Gee think it had anything to do with this????

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The proposal was conditional on a peace treaty that would allow Israel to retain the territory it had captured which had been allocated to the Arab state by the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, and on the Arab states absorbing the remaining 550,000–650,000 refugees. The Arab states rejected the proposal on both moral and political grounds, and Israel quickly withdrew its limited offer and would never again offer to allow any refugees to return to their homes.

Safran wrote that "The Arab states, who had refused even to negotiate face-to-face with the Israelis, turned down the offer because it implicitly recognized Israel's existence".[89]

Face it.. in the middle of a war where the JEWS were being attacked and killed by their not so peaceful neighbors... remember now. it was the ARAB LEGION and the Egyptians who opened hostilities within hours of the declaration of the State of Israel. Many of the Arabs in the areas that were supposed to remain Arab joined forces and attacked the Jews in neighboring villages.

You still have not recognized just how much was stolen from all those people driven from their homes. Based on that..

From Wiki

Jewish "Nakba"
In response to the Palestinian Nakba narrative, the term "Jewish Nakba" is sometimes used to refer to the persecution and expulsion of Jews from Arab countries in the years and decades following the creation of the State of Israel. Israeli columnist Ben Dror Yemini, himself a Mizrahi Jew, wrote:[23]

However, there is another Nakba: the Jewish Nakba. During those same years [the 1940's], there was a long line of slaughters, of pogroms, of property confiscation and of deportations against Jews in Islamic countries. This chapter of history has been left in the shadows. The Jewish Nakba was worse than the Palestinian Nakba. The only difference is that the Jews did not turn that Nakba into their founding ethos. To the contrary.

Professor Ada Aharoni, chairman of The World Congress of the Jews from Egypt, argues in an article entitled "What about the Jewish Nakba?" that exposing the truth about the expulsion of the Jews from Arab states could facilitate a genuine peace process, since it would enable Palestinians to realize they were not the only ones who suffered, and thus their sense of "victimization and rejectionism" will decline.[24]

Additionally, Canadian MP and international human rights lawyer Irwin Cotler has referred to the "double Nakba." He criticizes the Arab states rejectionism of the Jewish state, their subsequent invasion to destroy the newly formed nation, and the punishment meted out against their local Jewish populations:[25]

The result was, therefore, a double Nakba: not only of Palestinian-Arab suffering and the creation of a Palestinian refugee problem, but also, with the assault on Israel and on Jews in Arab countries, the creation of a second, much less known, group of refugees - Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

Yehuda Shenhav has criticized the analogy between Jewish emigration from Arab countries and the Palestinian exodus. He states that the analogy is "a mistaken reading of history, imprudent politics, and moral injustice." He also says "The unfounded, immoral analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi immigrants needlessly embroils members of these two groups in a dispute, degrades the dignity of many Mizrahi Jews, and harms prospects for genuine Jewish-Arab reconciliation." [10]

[dreamdancer 0]

i agree with Yehuda Shenhav
(meanwhile while you flounder with your history please remind us how many jews have ended up stateless compared to the millions of palestinians)

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[ManagingPrime 0]

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... treat Israel and the Palestinians equally ....save...a ton of taxpayer dollars.

That's the only piece of this thread that with me.

The region is full of a bunch of hardheaded assholes that have been having this fight for a LONG time.

I'm tired of hearing about the "plight" of both sides and I'm even more tired of my tax dollars getting poured into that mess. Hopefully "God" will get around to sorting out the "holy land" mess soon...tired of it. Blah.

[Southern_Man 0]

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Israel did not "win" it in a war. They occupied it after the war which is perfectly legal by international law but that is supposed to be a temporary measure. The occupying force is allowed to keep representatives of its military there for security reasons but it is not allowed to transfer its population (settlements) into the occupied territory.

What if the country it was "occupied" from (Jordan) never claimed it back?
Based on your "international law", the only entity that has a claim on this land beside Israel is Jordan, not the Palestinians.

It doesn't mean I don't support a Palestinian state in the west bank (it's the right solution), but they don't have a "right" for it based on your logic.

Honestly I believe Jordan taking the West Bank back might be the only basis for a peaceful solution. The Jordanians have proven to be one of the few reliable partners for peace that the Israelis have had. The Jordanians are also one of the only Arab countries who have treated the Palestinians with anything approaching decency. There are about 2 millions Palestinians who are Jordanian citizens. They make up just over 30% of Jordan's population.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Southern_Man 0]

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i agree with Yehuda Shenhav
(meanwhile while you flounder with your history please remind us how many jews have ended up stateless compared to the millions of palestinians)

They are stateless because their Arab "brothers" will not accord them basic human rights, the Jordanians only excepted.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[dreamdancer 0]

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i agree with Yehuda Shenhav
(meanwhile while you flounder with your history please remind us how many jews have ended up stateless compared to the millions of palestinians)

They are stateless because their Arab "brothers" will not accord them basic human rights, the Jordanians only excepted.

they are stateless because israel expelled them from their homes to create a majority jewish state.

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blue skies from thai sky adventures
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[Amazon 7]

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i agree with Yehuda Shenhav
(meanwhile while you flounder with your history please remind us how many jews have ended up stateless compared to the millions of palestinians)

Of course you do

I am not the one who does not have a firm grasp on the complexities of the situation... Again..

Would you rather be a jew living in an Arab country or would you prefer to be an Israeli Arab.

I realize that you are not so good at defining what is freedom and being able to live your life and practice your religion.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Would you rather be a jew living in an Arab country or would you prefer to be an Israeli Arab.

or how about a palestinian in the gaza strip?

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[Amazon 7]

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Would you rather be a jew living in an Arab country or would you prefer to be an Israeli Arab.

or how about a palestinian in the gaza strip?

Funny you should bring up GAZA..... I bet they would have a hell of a lot better life if Hamas TV did not preach the daily hate... while their glorious Arab fighters were out launching rockets into civilian areas of Israel.

They have had 60 years to make peace with Israel.... The Israeli's unilaterally withdrew leaving behind all of the settlements there... did Hamas make peace in exchange for land???? They can't even get past the fact that Israel exists and want to butcher every jew they could get their hands on.... hmmm that seems to ring an all too familiar bell. Who was it the Palistinians were supporting in WWII again???

Buehler..... Buehler???????

[kelpdiver 2]

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What is interesting about this thread however is that it's been good to get on record the reasoning for some people's justification for the treatment of the Palestinians. It seems to boil down to "really shitty things have happened repeatedly to the Jewish people. In return, I think it's ok that they do shitty things to another group of people..............over there.".

Re-summarized without your bullshit glasses:

Really shitty things happened to the Jews and as a result Israel was formed in the aftermath of WWII. Non Jews keep trying to kill them to retake Israel and can't understand why the Jews aren't willing to accept this.

[kelpdiver 2]

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they are stateless because israel expelled them from their homes to create a majority jewish state.

Egypt engaged in several wars of aggression until Sadat made peace (and was assassinated for it).

Syria and Iran spend billions on illegal nuclear weapons programs.

Hussein sent blood money to families of suicide bombers. Iran funds terrorism (freedom fighters if you prefer) as well.

But none of them will admit these Palestinians into their country. Wouldn't that be a cheaper, less violent solution?

[idrankwhat 0]

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What is interesting about this thread however is that it's been good to get on record the reasoning for some people's justification for the treatment of the Palestinians. It seems to boil down to "really shitty things have happened repeatedly to the Jewish people. In return, I think it's ok that they do shitty things to another group of people..............over there.".

Re-summarized without your bullshit glasses:

Really shitty things happened to the Jews and as a result Israel was formed in the aftermath of WWII.

Agreed

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Non Jews keep trying to kill them to retake Israel and can't understand why the Jews aren't willing to accept this.

I'm not talking about the current state of Israel and neither are the vast majority of people who are pushing for peace. I'm talking about the treatment of the people in the land that is NOT Israel. I don't see any bullshit. Look at the argument angle that Jeanne and some others choose. It has nothing to do with the border conflict and is focussed on historical mistreatment of the Jewish community. What happened to the Jews anywhere else in the world other than the current state of Israel is off the thread as far as I'm concerned. Israel has a border. We've (and I mean "we" as in US) let it become ridiculously ambiguous over the last decade and a half. That has to stop if there's going to be peace and that's going to entail pissing off both sides.

Ori, I'll get back to you later but I don't have time at the moment. It's a valid question though. Unfortunately I'm weak enough that when someone tells me that I'm full of shit that I feel the need to respond....to a point.

[Kennedy 0]

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we're waiting for you to explain why israel is throwing away possibly its last chance for peace by building a few homes.

Why do you say "last chance"? What makes this so different that suddenly now is the last chance. It's not like the crazies want them more dead now than they did nine months ago. What's so different that Israel should change their stance?

Also, you dodged the question earlier. Why were Palestinians avoiding the peace table during the freeze, but now willing to sit down if Israel will make a concession before talks begin?

And I'm STILL waiting for an answer to this question:

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What are the incentives for Israel to sit down and make concessions during peace talks when the folks they're talking to can't or won't reign in the ones that are actually attacking Israel?

Put yourself in their shoes. What is there for them to gain? What is coming their way for what they give up?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Amazon 7]

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What is interesting about this thread however is that it's been good to get on record the reasoning for some people's justification for the treatment of the Palestinians. It seems to boil down to "really shitty things have happened repeatedly to the Jewish people. In return, I think it's ok that they do shitty things to another group of people..............over there.".

Re-summarized without your bullshit glasses:

Really shitty things happened to the Jews and as a result Israel was formed in the aftermath of WWII.

Agreed

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Non Jews keep trying to kill them to retake Israel and can't understand why the Jews aren't willing to accept this.

I'm not talking about the current state of Israel and neither are the vast majority of people who are pushing for peace. I'm talking about the treatment of the people in the land that is NOT Israel. I don't see any bullshit. Look at the argument angle that Jeanne and some others choose. It has nothing to do with the border conflict and is focussed on historical mistreatment of the Jewish community. What happened to the Jews anywhere else in the world other than the current state of Israel is off the thread as far as I'm concerned. Israel has a border. We've (and I mean "we" as in US) let it become ridiculously ambiguous over the last decade and a half. That has to stop if there's going to be peace and that's going to entail pissing off both sides.

Ori, I'll get back to you later but I don't have time at the moment. It's a valid question though. Unfortunately I'm weak enough that when someone tells me that I'm full of shit that I feel the need to respond....to a point.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the current borders. You and others here seem to hold the Jews to a far different standard than you do the Arabs which include the Palistinians.

Some of the Arabs have been willing to make peace... the Palistinians have not. They lost a war... more Jewish land and people were displaced... perhaps if those peaceful arab states that attacked Israel would give the Palistinians all those former Jewish possesions since most of them are fellow travellers and will not even recognize Israel.... That was the deal offered 60 years ago... and they could have lived in peace and avoided 3 wars and many thousands dead. Some people though just can't rub that many brain cells together and see the more they fight.. in wars.. the more they have lost.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Unfortunately I'm weak enough that when someone tells me that I'm full of shit that I feel the need to respond....to a point.

Sounds like a weak protest...when you preceded it with "What is interesting about this thread however is that it's been good to get on record the reasoning for some people's justification for the treatment of the Palestinians."

If you shovel it, yeah, it's going to be called out.

[turtlespeed 212]

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And we are still waiting for you to show us your tribal membership or are you illegally occupying lands you have no ancestral or any other right to?

no we're not - we're waiting for you to explain why israel is throwing away possibly its last chance for peace by building a few illegal homes. surely they're not that important to go to war for?

Could you please cite the Israeli law that describes the building practices or methods or placement as "Illegal".

I'll wait.

Still waiting.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[dreamdancer 0]

and we're all waiting for the illegal settlement building to stop. either it does or the us loses face big time.

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good solid response-provoking keyboarding