Green jobs myth exposed

[billvon 2,436]

> I live in PA and we have created over 50,000 non green jobs with shale
>gas production. Far more that any "green jobs".

Here in California we've created 51,000 new jobs via the California Solar Initiative during the installation of almost 10 megawatts of solar-PV. The guy who helped me with my install said he wouldn't be in business if not for the initiative.

> Just think, how many disenfranchised people could we have put through
>college with the money we wasted on corn ethanol?

Just think how many people we could have put through college if we banned the sale of wasteful SUV's and subsidized cheaper/cleaner/lighter cars instead. (Not really a good argument in either case.)

[brenthutch 388]

Wow, dont stop there. Just think of how many jobs we could creat if we got rid of everything

[billvon 2,436]

>Wow, dont stop there. Just think of how many jobs we could creat if we
>got rid of everything

Yep. My (sarcastic) suggestion was as stupid as yours.

[brenthutch 388]

50,000+ green jobs gained in CA at a cost of billions to the tax payer. (not sure you notices but your state is going bankrupt) 50,000 non-green jobs created in PA at a net gain for the tax payer.

More:
As mentioned, Spain has likely destroyed more jobs than it has created with its extensive subsidies for wind and solar. Its unemployment rate, nearly 19 percent, is double that of the U.S. and does not suggest that green jobs can create prosperity. In Denmark, each wind energy job has cost $90,000 to $140,000 in subsidies, which is more than the jobs pay.[6] In Germany, the figure is as high as $240,000.[7] And the experience in Spain, Denmark, and Germany is that most of the green jobs created are temporary ones

http://www.heritage.org/research/energyandenvironment/wm2795.cfm

[billvon 2,436]

>50,000+ green jobs gained in CA at a cost of billions to the tax payer.

Those billions then went right back to the taxpayer in the form of solar installations. And since solar systems last 30 years or so, they will keep giving back to the taxpayer. And reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. And make California cleaner. That's on top of all those jobs it created, of course.

>(not sure you notices but your state is going bankrupt)

Yep. And your state is having so much trouble that it's laying off 76,000 employees. Not sure if you noticed.

>50,000 non-green jobs created in PA at a net gain for the tax payer.

Get 26,000 more jobs created and at least you'll be at break-even.

[idrankwhat 0]

Quote

50,000 non-green jobs created in PA at a net gain for the tax payer.

Until you factor in increased health care costs due to the unintended consequences.
The attachment is from the Dish Texas health survey.

[brenthutch 388]

Sometimes called externalities. Wind is not without its own.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39941-2004Dec31_3.html

The large scale slaughter of bats could do harm to organic farmers who depend on them to control insects.

[billvon 2,436]

>The large scale slaughter of bats could do harm to organic farmers who
>depend on them to control insects.

Yep. Power lines, buildings and trees also kill bats, who run into features (wires, small branches, antennas) they cannot detect with sonar.

No form of power is ideal; some are just better than others. To use two examples, coal power plants kill about 5.2 birds and bats per gigawatt-hour of power generated; wind farms kill about .3 avians per gWhr.

[brenthutch 388]

Those billions then went right back to the taxpayer in the form of solar installations. And since solar systems last 30 years or so, they will keep giving back to the taxpayer. And reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. And make California cleaner. That's on top of all those jobs it created, of course."

So we could spend a trillion dollars on green jobs and it would not cost us a cent because we wiould get it all back? If it is that simple, sign me up. No down side to green jobs? No oppertunity cost? I am going to change the bumper sticker from drill baby drill to (wind) mill baby mill.

[billvon 2,436]

>So we could spend a trillion dollars on green jobs and it would not cost us
>a cent because we wiould get it all back?

Of course not; it does indeed cost money. It also creates jobs, lessens our dependence on foreign fossil fuels, cleans the air, reduces homeowner's energy bills, reduces the need for new power plants and transmission lines, reduces the potential for blackouts and helps save mountain ranges and forests.

If all of those things are worth the money, then it's a good investment. I think it is.

>I am going to change the bumper sticker from drill baby drill to (wind) mill baby mill.

If you like. I find that it takes more than a bumper sticker (or three second sound bites) to even sum up things like energy policies.

[brenthutch 388]

Although I do have a bit of a reservation when I read that Denmark and Germany have installed over 20,000 wind turbines and have not closed a single coal fired power plant. Irony alert! (Germany said that this was because of the unusually cold winters they have been having in recent years)

[billvon 2,436]

>Although I do have a bit of a reservation when I read that Denmark
>and Germany have installed over 20,000 wind turbines and have not closed
>a single coal fired power plant.

Yep. Because now Denmark has enough of a surplus that they sell it to other countries.

Some stats about the Denmark's wind generation:

Generates 20% of their power
Employs 20,000 people
Produces 40% of the world's wind turbines

Nevertheless, they're a small country, and they're only 10th overall in wind power production. The US is #2, and would be #1 if you didn't count the EU as one country.

[brenthutch 388]

20,000 jobs producing 1/5 of their power. Lets say we ramp that up to 100. Even if you were to ignore economies of scale and 100% of their power was from wind, those jobs would employ fewer that 2% of their population. This hardly seems like a green jobs revolution, especially when you take away the estimated 160,000+ jobs lost and the fact that non green jobs pay more that the green ones. The economics just don’t make sense.

[billvon 2,436]

> Lets say we ramp that up to 100. Even if you were to ignore economies
>of scale and 100% of their power was from wind, those jobs would employ
>fewer that 2% of their population. . . .The economics just don’t make
>sense.

Here in the US, even if we went to 100% coal power, there would be far fewer than 1% of the population employed by the industry. So the economics of coal make even less sense, going by that metric.

[brenthutch 388]

But I never claimed 1000's of coal jobs would be created.

[idrankwhat 0]

Quote

The economics just don’t make sense.

Would they make more sense if you consider that green energy production does not require $100 billion per year (over $200 billion if you include the Iraq war) in military resources to secure?
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/auxiliary/energy_security/full_report.pdf

With a green energy economy you have increased exports (makes money), fewer wars (saves money), cleaner water (saves money), a healthier population (saves money), and sustainability (makes sense).

[billvon 2,436]

>But I never claimed 1000's of coal jobs would be created.

BrentHutch:

"I live in PA and we have created over 50,000 non green jobs with shale gas production."

[brenthutch 388]

I didnt claim they would be I said that they did.

[brenthutch 388]

From your very own LA Times

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/03/10/report-says-california-global-warming-law-will-cause-job-losses

[billvon 2,436]

>From your very own LA Times

Here's an article about your very own Elkhart, Indiana:

Electric Vehicles May Energize Elkhart's Future
Published March 11, 2010 10:00 AM

A year ago, Elkhart, Ind., had the highest unemployment rate in the country — near 20 percent. President Obama highlighted Elkhart's troubles, visiting twice last year to push his economic stimulus programs.

There are some tentative signs of recovery in Elkhart, though unemployment still hovers around 15 percent. The city is trying to shift its economy away from gas-guzzling RVs, and hopes to begin rolling electric vehicles off its assembly lines soon.

. . .

In a city where nearly one in six are still out of work, many say electric vehicles seem to hold more promise than almost anything else.

[brenthutch 388]

Like my grandmother used to say....Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first.

[billvon 2,436]

>Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first.

Sounds like that could be the motto for all the climate change deniers.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

>Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first.

Sounds like that could be the motto for all the climate change deniers.

Given all the falsified data, bad programs and everything else that's come to light, seems more applicable to the global warming hysterics.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706