falxori 0
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Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteUS foreign policy w/r/t Israel is a major, if not the primary cause of much of our international troubles. Without a doubt we need to reconsider our support.
you are naive.
if a gang beats up your little brother, will you stop protecting him just so you don't risk them being mad at you?QuoteIs it your assertion that Israel is not occupying any land beyond their 1947 UN recognized borders?
you mean during a war that was forced upon it?
what do you want Israel to do, apologize for not losing a war it didn't start?
He seems to forget who attacked en masse as soon as the State of Israel was declared.... he does not acknowledge the actions of the Grand Mufti....etc. JCD is just real good with historical facts.
jcd11235 0
QuoteQuoteIf my little brother taunted the gang members
and that's the main problem. you see Israel's existance as "taunting the gang". if you deny Israel's right to exist, our discussion will go nowhere.
The problem is that Israel isn't happy simply existing, they bring their problems on themselves.
Quotesure it does.
Right. Israel's illegal occupations are a problem. They aren't "simply existing."
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jcd11235 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteUS foreign policy w/r/t Israel is a major, if not the primary cause of much of our international troubles. Without a doubt we need to reconsider our support.
you are naive.
if a gang beats up your little brother, will you stop protecting him just so you don't risk them being mad at you?QuoteIs it your assertion that Israel is not occupying any land beyond their 1947 UN recognized borders?
you mean during a war that was forced upon it?
what do you want Israel to do, apologize for not losing a war it didn't start?
He seems to forget who attacked en masse as soon as the State of Israel was declared.... he does not acknowledge the actions of the Grand Mufti....etc. JCD is just real good with historical facts.
You're good enough at attacking the player. Have you considered playing the ball?
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falxori 0
QuoteThe problem is that Israel isn't happy simply existing, they bring their problems on themselves.
and what do you know about what Israelis wants?
QuoteRight. Israel's illegal occupations are a problem. They aren't "simply existing."
if you're still talking about the 1947 plans, it was kinda hard to "just exist" when you are attacked by 6 armies at once.
you need to understand that what you see as "occupied", Israeli's (as well as Palestinians) see as their homeland. the problem is that both sides see the same land as their homeland. its not like occopying a remote territory like in colonial times. anyway, most Israelis are willing to part with parts of what they consider to be their homeland since the only viable solution is to divide the land. sadly, it takes two to make this move.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
jcd11235 0
Quoteand what do you know about what Israelis wants?
Their actions indicate that they do not want to "simply exist."
Quoteyou need to understand that what you see as "occupied", Israeli's (as well as Palestinians) see as their homeland.
What borders do the UN recognize today? Are Israelis occupying territory beyond those borders? Quite simply, if they are, they're wrong and should be held accountable for those occupations.
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Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteUS foreign policy w/r/t Israel is a major, if not the primary cause of much of our international troubles. Without a doubt we need to reconsider our support.
you are naive.
if a gang beats up your little brother, will you stop protecting him just so you don't risk them being mad at you?QuoteIs it your assertion that Israel is not occupying any land beyond their 1947 UN recognized borders?
you mean during a war that was forced upon it?
what do you want Israel to do, apologize for not losing a war it didn't start?
He seems to forget who attacked en masse as soon as the State of Israel was declared.... he does not acknowledge the actions of the Grand Mufti....etc. JCD is just real good with historical facts.
You're good enough at attacking the player. Have you considered playing the ball?
Instead of playing at anything... how about delving into the history of the conflict.
And please by all means use some sources OTHER than your buddies Hezbollah and Hamas.
falxori 0
QuoteTheir actions indicate that they do not want to "simply exist."
no, their actions indicate that they defending themselves against ongoing attacks.
QuoteWhat borders do the UN recognize today? Are Israelis occupying territory beyond those borders? Quite simply, if they are, they're wrong and should be held accountable for those occupations.
lets take you oversimplifying approach.
let's say the 1967 borders are the answer. what then? just pull out? did you see what happened in Gaza after Israel just pulled out?
Hamas, backed by Iran took control, violently kicked the PA out and continued to shoot rockets over the borders when there was not a single Israeli in Gaza.
you simple solutions are nice for the forums. they do not work in real life.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
falxori 0
QuoteIsrael's illegal occupations are a problem
and since you depend so much on official borders.
the west bank was Jordanian and the Gaza Strip was Egyptian. there were never "Palestinian".
neither Jordan nor Egypt want these lands back (can't blame them...) so if you really want to follow the "law", who is the owner now?
but, that's a theoretic discussion that would lead nowhere. just making a note that your claim about "occupation" is not as solid as you think.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
Gawain 0
QuoteQuoteIf you're going to be objective and cite the UN in the context of legitimacy, then why not cite the UN partition of 1947?
Is it your assertion that Israel is not occupying any land beyond their 1947 UN recognized borders?
I made no such assertion. I stated that Israel accepted the 1947 UN partition. The Arabs did not, and attacked Israel.
Since then, there have been no less than two major military challenges massed against Israel by numerous sovereign states, and countless attacks on Israel by "organizations" who operate outside the confines of any recognizable "law".
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
jcd11235 0
Quoteno, their actions indicate that they defending themselves against ongoing attacks.
Has the siege of the Gaza strip accomplished that?
Quotelet's say the 1967 borders are the answer. what then? just pull out?
Good faith negotiations would be a nice start. But, yes, ending the illegal occupations needs to happen.
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Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you're going to be objective and cite the UN in the context of legitimacy, then why not cite the UN partition of 1947?
Is it your assertion that Israel is not occupying any land beyond their 1947 UN recognized borders?
I made no such assertion. I stated that Israel accepted the 1947 UN partition. The Arabs did not, and attacked Israel.
Since then, there have been no less than two major military challenges massed against Israel by numerous sovereign states, and countless attacks on Israel by "organizations" who operate outside the confines of any recognizable "law".
SHHHHH that is not supposed to count... Only anything Israel does in response is supposed to count.. and we must condemn them until Iran can solve the problem for the muslim world.
falxori 0
QuoteHas the siege of the Gaza strip accomplished that?
not 100%. but it has limitted Hamas' supply of more advanced weapons.
again, there is no reason on earth for israel to provide supplies to someone who is trying to destroy it.
QuoteGood faith negotiations would be a nice start
yeap, too bad Hamas doesn't really believe in negotiations.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
jcd11235 0
QuoteI made no such assertion.
Fair enough. That's why I indicated clarification was necessary.
QuoteSince then, there have been no less than two major military challenges massed against Israel by numerous sovereign states, and countless attacks on Israel by "organizations" who operate outside the confines of any recognizable "law".
Let's not forget the attacks by Israel in recent years. Let's also remember their illegal occupations and numerous UNSC resolution violations. Did you agree with the use of force to enforce such resolutions with other countries in the region, e.g., Iraq? If so, why the double standard w/r/t Israel?
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Gawain 0
QuoteLet's not forget the attacks by Israel in recent years
Precipitated by what?
I've already established who drew first blood.
We can go tit-for-tat all night long, if you're willing to accept UN bullsh*t as gospel, then again I cite, the UN partition of 1947. Israel was ready to peacefully accept that clusterf*ck of a deal. The Arabs rejected outright, and have made it a mission to eliminate the State of Israel through any means they can get their hands on, whether political, military, or via terrorism.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteI made no such assertion.
Fair enough. That's why I indicated clarification was necessary.QuoteSince then, there have been no less than two major military challenges massed against Israel by numerous sovereign states, and countless attacks on Israel by "organizations" who operate outside the confines of any recognizable "law".
Let's not forget the attacks by Israel in recent years. Let's also remember their illegal occupations and numerous UNSC resolution violations. Did you agree with the use of force to enforce such resolutions with other countries in the region, e.g., Iraq? If so, why the double standard w/r/t Israel?
How many attacks on Israel are the Israeli's supposed to take over and over until they can hit back at those who are are attacking them???
jcd11235 0
QuoteQuoteHas the siege of the Gaza strip accomplished that?
not 100%. but it has limitted Hamas' supply of more advanced weapons.
From the article:
The blockade was ostensibly a means to stem the influx of weaponry into Gaza. In practice, with shipments the size of automobiles flowing through the tunnels, the Hamas arsenal has grown ever more sophisticated, now believed to include Iranian-manufactured rockets capable of striking Tel Aviv and Ben-Gurion Airport from the Strip.
Quotethere is no reason on earth for israel to provide supplies to someone who is trying to destroy it.
Besides the fact that it is illegal to block humanitarian supplies as Israel has been doing?
Quotetoo bad Hamas doesn't really believe in negotiations.
From the article:
Finally, Cast Lead, the Gaza war a year ago, might have been prevented altogether, had Israel adhered more closely to the Egyptian-brokered Hamas-Israel truce agreement of June, 2008, and lifted the siege more completely in response to a drop in rocket fire.
Do you have any arguments supporting the siege that haven't already been addressed by the article being discussed?
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Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteLet's not forget the attacks by Israel in recent years
Precipitated by what?
I've already established who drew first blood.
We can go tit-for-tat all night long, if you're willing to accept UN bullsh*t as gospel, then again I cite, the UN partition of 1947. Israel was ready to peacefully accept that clusterf*ck of a deal. The Arabs rejected outright, and have made it a mission to eliminate the State of Israel through any means they can get their hands on, whether political, military, or via terrorism.
Dont forget propaganda... there are plenty of dumbasses that believe all the propaganda that the muslim world puts out every week.
jcd11235 0
QuoteWe can go tit-for-tat all night long, if you're willing to accept UN bullsh*t as gospel, then again I cite, the UN partition of 1947. Israel was ready to peacefully accept that clusterf*ck of a deal.
The fact remains that Israel cannot use past wars to justify current illegal actions.
Too many people want to claim UNSC resolution violations when it is politically convenient, but then disregard the authority of the UN when that's convenient. That's why Israel hasn't had to be held accountable for their violations.
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falxori 0
QuoteDo you have any arguments supporting the siege that haven't already been addressed by the article being discussed?
I simply don't agree with what is said in the article.
the fact that they manage to smuggle rockets through tunnels is only an indication of what and how many they would have got if they could get them freely.
btw, if Hamas can smuggle rockets so easily, why don't they smuggle some food instead.
just so you know, food supplies are going into Gaza, almost always these shipments are captured by Hamas who takes care of its own people first.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
jcd11235 0
QuoteDont forget propaganda... there are plenty of dumbasses that believe all the propaganda that the muslim world puts out every week.
There are also plenty of dumbasses that believe all the propaganda put out by the US and Israel.
Some of us would just like to see Israel live and act lawfully as a member of the international community.
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jcd11235 0
QuoteI simply don't agree with what is said in the article.
Do you have any data countering the points it makes, or is it simply not consistent with your political beliefs.
(For the record, I don't believe either the Palestinians or the Israelis can claim the moral high ground.)
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Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteDont forget propaganda... there are plenty of dumbasses that believe all the propaganda that the muslim world puts out every week.
There are also plenty of dumbasses that believe all the propaganda put out by the US and Israel.
Some of us would just like to see Israel live and act lawfully as a member of the international community.
When are you going to demand the same of your good buddies??
falxori 0
QuoteDo you have any data countering the points it makes
this article is a repetitive opinion on whether or not it is effective and to what extent.
there is no "data" to counter.
the simple fact remains. as lomg as Gaza is goverened by a terroristic entity that wages war against it. Israel has every right not to supply Gaza with anything.
having said that, Israel does allow for supplies to go in and you're forgetting the pretty long border between Gaza and Egypt. where is your rage against the egyptians?
whether the blockade is effective or not?
in some ways it is, in some ways it isn't. it still doesn't mean Israel should keep an open border with someone who is constantly attacking it.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
and that's the main problem. you see Israel's existance as "taunting the gang". if you deny Israel's right to exist, our discussion will go nowhere.
sure it does.
are you saying that the 1947 borders are still valid after the arabs refused to accept the division plan?
are you saying that they can simply reject it, start a war, and after they've lost, claim "oh wait, we want to accept it now"?
sorry, it doens't work like that. if you start a war and lose, you pay the price.
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