Will there be another mass exodus in the US Military like the one in the Clinton era?

[warpedskydiver 0]

If Obama wins as most of the media and the liberals predict, will there be a mass exodus of Officers as well as senior NCO's?

Well?

[nerdgirl 0]

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If Obama wins as most of the media and the liberals predict, will there be a mass exodus of Officers as well as senior NCO's?

Well?

No.
If there was such a politically-motivated 'exodus', that would suggest that those officers and NCOs were there for purely partisan reasons. Rather than serving in order to support and defend the Constitution and the United States.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[MegaGoliath11 0]

umm no. I am a U.S. Army officer and I am for Obama. Believe or not most Service men and women don't talk about leaving the military because of who might get elected. That's childish talk.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Good point, but I will point out what happened with many I personally knew during Clintons last few years.

The troops will fight, but they will not embrace the shit that will be forced upon them by his administration.

I would ask some of our current service types to chime in, but that may not be a good idea for many reasons

[warpedskydiver 0]

Not because of who is elected, but rather the decisions that will be made about how the military will be run via the crap that will roll down hill.

[kallend 1,679]

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Good point, but I will point out what happened with many I personally knew during Clintons last few years.

And I personally know many who joined up during the Clinton years and left in disgust during Dubya's term.

You might want to check the re-enlistment bonuses that had to be added to meet goals during Dubya's reign.

You might want to check the lowered enlistment standards to meet goals during Dubya's reign.

You might want to check Army suicide rates during Dubya's reign.

But I doubt you want to see anything contrary to your worldview.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Re-enlistment rates have been higher during the last eight years than the previous eight.

[Lucky... 0]

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If Obama wins as most of the media and the liberals predict, will there be a mass exodus of Officers as well as senior NCO's?

Well?

The so-called exodus was part of the downsizing, you know, the downsizing that GHWB started? GHWB cut about as many troops in 1/2 the time, rendering a rate of troop reduction to be twice that of Clinton. Please, oh please dare me to post that DOD data. And how much has your current guy built the military back up? What, 10%, maybe 20% at the very most? And that's due to not allowing the members to exit at the end of their tours: stop-loss. So the reality is that GHWB started cutting post-Cold War, Clinton continued and GWB agree by not building the military back up. DOn;t worry, tho, the Military Industrial Complex is still phat.

[Lucky... 0]

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umm no. I am a U.S. Army officer and I am for Obama. Believe or not most Service men and women don't talk about leaving the military because of who might get elected. That's childish talk.

Right, your career is your career and you swore to uphold the Constitution and take order form the commander in chief, nothing about depends if it's that guy or the other.

[kallend 1,679]

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Re-enlistment rates have been higher during the last eight years than the previous eight.

I didn't claim they hadn't. My comment was on the bonuses needed.

WASHINGTON, April 12, 2007 -- The Pentagon poured more than $1 billion into bonuses last year to keep soldiers and Marines in the military in the face of an unpopular war and battlefield deployments that are getting longer and more frequent.

The incentives -- including tax-free payments for those who re- enlist while in the war zone -- have jumped nearly sixfold since 2003, the year the war in Iraq began.

It helps a lot of guys out, said Sgt. 1st Class Richard Doran, who re-enlisted late last year during his tour in Iraq. And I think it does sway some of the decisions to stay in when guys are on the fence trying to decide.

The size and number of bonuses have grown as officials scrambled to meet the steady demand for troops on the battlefields in Iraq and Afghanistan and reverse sporadic shortfalls in the number of National Guard and Reserve soldiers willing to sign on for multiple tours.

On Wednesday, officials said the Pentagon is thinking about lengthening tours of duty for all active-duty Army units in Iraq to 15 months instead of 12.

Besides underscoring the extraordinary steps the Pentagon must take to maintain fighting forces, the rise in costs for re- enlistment incentives is putting strains on the defense budget, already strapped by the massive costs of waging war and equipping and caring for a modern military.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

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Good point, but I will point out what happened with many I personally knew during Clintons last few years.

The troops will fight, but they will not embrace the shit that will be forced upon them by his administration.

I would ask some of our current service types to chime in, but that may not be a good idea for many reasons

Being enlisted in the military is much like prison in a way. not that I've been to prison, but you can't go where you want, grow your hair the way you want, choose your friends, neighbors, etc. With that, there is much discontent at times, esp in war, so as for embracing goes, people in the military iften bitch, but they shut up and getthe job done, hats off to them, for I was one.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Policies such as don't ask don't tell were certainly factors that negatively affected morale, as well as retention of excellent service members.

I personally witnessed some fine people being run out as a result, they were Intel types within the Navy, most were women.

[Lucky... 0]

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Good point, but I will point out what happened with many I personally knew during Clintons last few years.

And I personally know many who joined up during the Clinton years and left in disgust during Dubya's term.

You might want to check the re-enlistment bonuses that had to be added to meet goals during Dubya's reign.

You might want to check the lowered enlistment standards to meet goals during Dubya's reign.

You might want to check Army suicide rates during Dubya's reign.

But I doubt you want to see anything contrary to your worldview.

Don't asked Wapred to remove his rose-coloored glasses.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Gee, I guess that makes me a wannabe eh?

[Lucky... 0]

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Re-enlistment rates have been higher during the last eight years than the previous eight.

There was an intentional troops reduction during Clinton, as with GHWB.

[nerdgirl 0]

One of the most pressing retention issues over the last 5 years, for the Army in particular, is O-3s (Captains).

From Defenselink.mil:

"Officer retention patterns are changing, causing the services increasing worry about continuation rates, particularly among O-3s.

"Anecdotal reports to DoD officials suggest Army, Air Force and Marine Corps captains and Navy lieutenants are leaving the military in numbers not seen since 1973 -- the founding of the all-volunteer force. If the stories are accurate, the services might find trouble ahead when it comes time to pick promotion-worthy O-3s -- they prefer large candidate pools, but might not have that luxury in some specialties.

"A hot economy is partly to blame, said service officials, but exit interviews with departing officers seem to indicate a growing disenchantment with military life."

It's important to recogize that the 'exodus' are small but significant numbers, on the order of 10-15%. More importantly, imo, is which junior officers are leaving in larger percentages.

From December 2007 article in Washinton Monthly:

"In 2003, around 8 percent of junior officers with between four and nine years of experience left for other careers. Last year [2006], the attrition rate leapt to 13 percent. 'A five percent change could potentially be a serious problem,' said James Hosek, an expert in military retention at the RAND Corporation. Over the long term, this rate of attrition would halve the number of officers who reach their tenth year in uniform and intend to take senior leadership roles.

"But the problem isn't one of numbers alone: the Army also appears to be losing its most gifted young officers. In 2005, internal Army memos started to warn of the 'disproportionate loss of high-potential, high-performance junior leaders.' West Point graduates are leaving at their highest rates since the 1970s (except for a few years in the early 1990s when the Army's goal was to reduce its size). Of the nearly 1,000 cadets from the class of 2002, 58 percent are no longer on active duty.

"Colonel George Lockwood, the director of officer personnel management for the Army's Human Resources Command, wrote [in 2006], 'The Army is facing significant challenges in officer manning, now and in the immediate future.' Lockwood was referring to an anticipated shortfall of about 3,000 captains and majors until at least 2013; he estimated that the Army already has only about half the senior captains that it needs. "Read the last line again, please,' Lockwood wrote. 'Our inventory of senior captains is only 51 percent of requirement.' In response to this deficit, the Army is taking in twenty-two-year-olds as fast as it can. However, these recruits can't be expected to perform the jobs of officers who have six to eight years of experience. 'New 2nd Lieutenants,' Lockwood observed, 'are no substitute for senior captains.'

"Iraq, in one way or another, is a driving force behind many officers' decision to leave. For some, there's a nagging bitterness that the war's burden is falling overwhelmingly on men and women in uniform while the rest of the country largely ignores it. While many officers don't oppose the war itself, returning repeatedly to serve in Iraq is a grueling way to live. One of the many reasons for this is that it corrodes their families; the divorce rate among Army officers has tripled since 2003. Internal surveys show that the percentage of officers who cite 'amount of time separated from family' as a primary factor for leaving the Army has at least doubled since 2002, to more than 30 percent."

The more instructive time period, imo, would be to look back to the days after the Vietnam war and at the creation of the all-volunteer force. How to retain, maintain, and support the junior officers -- of all services -- today who will be the general officers 20+ years from now *and* making military service an attractive option for the best & brightest of tomorrow & today who will be general officers 25-30+ years from now is a concern of mine.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Lucky... 0]

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Policies such as don't ask don't tell were certainly factors that negatively affected morale, as well as retention of excellent service members.

I personally witnessed some fine people being run out as a result, they were Intel types within the Navy, most were women.

>>>>>>>>>>>>Policies such as don't ask don't tell were certainly factors that negatively affected morale,...


People were so homophobic that they left due to a policy that wouldn't affect them negatively? BTW, during your current guy's term, people are wanting out so they claim they're gay, essentially do a Max Klinger, and the military classifies them as straight and tells them to go back to their boyfriend and shut up. So in reality, there is more open and accepted gayness for troop retention than there was during the new policy by Clinton.

[Lucky... 0]

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Gee, I guess that makes me a wannabe eh?

In response to what? You and I posted several times here.

[warpedskydiver 0]

"Iraq, in one way or another, is a driving force behind many officers' decision to leave. For some, there's a nagging bitterness that the war's burden is falling overwhelmingly on men and women in uniform while the rest of the country largely ignores it. While many officers don't oppose the war itself, returning repeatedly to serve in Iraq is a grueling way to live. One of the many reasons for this is that it corrodes their families; the divorce rate among Army officers has tripled since 2003. Internal surveys show that the percentage of officers who cite 'amount of time separated from family' as a primary factor for leaving the Army has at least doubled since 2002, to more than 30 percent."

VR/Marg

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The highlighted is the reason.

There were other ways of handling such a problem.

As for the longevity of this conflict, many hand on both sides of the aisle were too busy profiting personally and politically from it to make sure that the Iraqi government was self sufficient far earlier.

You know how I feel about the same issues, retention and leadership are key elements of maintaining our country's deterrent factors and force projection capabilities.

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[TheAnvil 0]

I don't think so. A few people left in disgust under Clinton - emphasis on the few. Many people leave in disgust for many other reasons not related to politics, but at the service they served itself. Many more leave because they don't like the lifestyle or wish to do other things in life. Many choose to stay.

The military is a microcosm of society as a whole and there are more Obama supporters in the military than many believe. As a whole, I'd normally put the military (gut feel) at about 75/25 Republican Democrat. I'd say the # is going to be 60/40 for McCain/Obama - gut feel again.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[downwardspiral 0]

I was part of that mass exodus. I can honestly say this was a major reason for the majority of the Marines I knew were getting out. Of course we weren't fully informed on how it worked and the blame was placed on President Clinton. Looking back at it now I see how wrong were truly were.

Also there is the case of very low morale. Looking back at it now I can't exactly put my finger on why morale was so low. I do know we did not perceive President Clinton as being a friend to the military. If anything we saw him as being very anti-military. We saw him as not having backbone for military operations thanks to what he pulled in Somalia. We blamed him for Blackhawk Down.

I can tell you the things we did was for our country and the Commandant and, for many Marines, God but it was certainly not for President Clinton.

Will it be the same under Obama? Hard to say. We'll have to see how he handles Iraq and Afghanistan first.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Lucky... 0]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Many more leave because they don't like the lifestyle or wish to do other things in life.


Exactly and some will stretch the truth and if they dislike current politics, they could say they are leaving due to that. I was in during fascist Ronnie, didn't like him then either but I never used that as a reason to leave.


>>>>>>>>>>>The military is a microcosm of society as a whole.....


A non-representative microcosm.

[warpedskydiver 0]

As an active duty guy during Reagan, I can say that you were certainly in a minority of the smallest proportion.

I think he had the support of the troops and trust like no other president we had ever seen before or since.

I remember when he was elected, there were cheers of absolute happiness on post from people of all different backgrounds and political persuasions.

If you had endured any portion of the Carter years whilst wearing a uniform, you certainly paid your dues.

We were like the abandoned orphans of society, had crap for equipment, fuel shortages for ops, near mutinies over a stop in pay, and the worst morale seen by Senior NCO's in their 30 year careers.

[Lucky... 0]

That is an honest post, aside from partisan politics, honest. I didn't give 2 rats asses about the CIC when I was in, I didn't like him and he fucked GI's pay as well. fascist Ronnie gave us a big pay raise Oct 81, his 1st year, then gave us 0 the next. Overall, his 8 year average pay increases were considerably less than Clinton, but don't worry, the facist pig gave billions to military contractors.

I heard about the retirement system being redone and fucking people, I was out then but thought it sucked. I guess fascist Ronnie signed it, w/o knowing more for sure unless it was an intra-military directive. As I just wrote, fascist pig Ronnie did not even enter as 1 thought during my military hitch. I do recall there being a "Quality Force" program in the Air Force in about 86 where they wanted people who wanted to be there and would let people out early through a program called, "Palace Chase." That was where they would let you go from active to reserve, then double your remaining active time for the reserve obligation. They would usually let you do a GWB and just ignore your reserve obligation tho, as I heard it.

I just don't buy virtually any stories about people leaving the military due to a given president, it's just grand standing. You will have the occasssional sick martyr, like the one that killed himself as Bush was reelected in 2004. I think that was Atalanta.

[Lucky... 0]

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As an active duty guy during Reagan, I can say that you were certainly in a minority of the smallest proportion.

I think he had the support of the troops and trust like no other president we had ever seen before or since.

I remember when he was elected, there were cheers of absolute happiness on post from people of all different backgrounds and political persuasions.

If you had endured any portion of the Carter years whilst wearing a uniform, you certainly paid your dues.

We were like the abandoned orphans of society, had crap for equipment, fuel shortages for ops, near mutinies over a stop in pay, and the worst morale seen by Senior NCO's in their 30 year careers.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think he had the support of the troops and trust like no other president we had ever seen before or since.

COme on, not more grandstanding. Eisenhower, Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, General Grant, and on and on.... Let's see what Fascist Bonzo did, hmmmm, I guess he was a USO bitch in the Army and then a horrible actor.

Let's examone what he did for us then. Oh yea, he gave us 0 as a pay increase for his second October pay raise. Yea, we loved him.


>>>>>>>>>>>>I remember when he was elected, there were cheers of absolute happiness on post from people of all different backgrounds and political persuasions.


Yea, that was more about hating Carter, but even in the civilian sector people loved his election by landslide.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If you had endured any portion of the Carter years whilst wearing a uniform, you certainly paid your dues.

My first 9 months were under Carter.


>>>>>>>>>>>>. ....near mutinies over a stop in pay,>>>


I've never heard that. We just got a pay cut under Reagan. BTW, you are aware your beloved fascist one gave lower pay raises than Clinton, right?