Way to go, UAW, Just Don't Get It...

[Frenchy68 0]

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I would like to know one thing. Who here has actually worked in a union shop? A lot of people bitch about the unions but they have never seen a union shop. Just wondering.

Yup. Most of the entertainment industry is union-based, although independents are making serious headway in the past few years. SAG and IATSE have really hurt in the past few years.

I am a business owner AND a union member (DGA). So are my 2 business partners. The Union sued our company and almost put us out of business with damages and interests, for failure to make contributions on income which was NOT covered under a union category...
Unions and their subsequent health and pension plans (which are the ones with the REAL power) have bylaws. Once one agrees to such bylaws and puts pen to paper, both parties are bound to the bylaws. There is little if any flexibility, which is the major issue IMO.
Unions are mammoths of a time past, and I think they will slowly (albeit not quietly) will fade into the background.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[kallend 1,660]

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I would like to know one thing. Who here has actually worked in a union shop? A lot of people bitch about the unions but they have never seen a union shop. Just wondering.

Yup. Most of the entertainment industry is union-based, although independents are making serious headway in the past few years. SAG and IATSE have really hurt in the past few years.

I have a distant relative who is an actor and a member of Actors' Equity. He says the reason the movie industry in particular is so unionized is that the big studios used to swindle the actors out of their "residuals" before the union started keeping track.

The primary reason unions came about in the first place was unethical and exploitive behavior by companies, and I have little reason to suppose business ethics have made a dramatic about turn in the intervening years.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[joedirt 0]

This whole thing's gonna suck for everybody if it goes on too long.

[DSE 3]

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I would like to know one thing. Who here has actually worked in a union shop? A lot of people bitch about the unions but they have never seen a union shop. Just wondering.

Yup. Most of the entertainment industry is union-based, although independents are making serious headway in the past few years. SAG and IATSE have really hurt in the past few years.

I have a distant relative who is an actor and a member of Actors' Equity. He says the reason the movie industry in particular is so unionized is that the big studios used to swindle the actors out of their "residuals" before the union started keeping track.

The primary reason unions came about in the first place was unethical and exploitive behavior by companies, and I have little reason to suppose business ethics have made a dramatic about turn in the intervening years.

this is true, *used to* being the key word. AFTRA, SAG (and other AAAA affiliates) IATSE, DGA, and the like are all their own worst enemies at this point. There *so* many ways to circumvent the industry unions now, everyone outside of the top levels are doing it. I/my company recently published a book on how to make a SAG film for under 10k. The film around which we wrote the book, stars Adrian Zmed (TJ Hooker, Dance Fever) and John Saxon (Superman among others), and it has done quite well at both film fests and picking up distribution. In other words, we got names for the film for virtually no money. this is what makes independent work, and independent is doing _very_ well these days. Napoleon Dynamite, anyone?
Had we followed the rules rather than ducked the loopholes to make the film, the film never would have been made.
Today...SO many films (the majority of them) are made in non-union locations, this is why so many states are now offering incentives to bring productions to their area, and spending so much money advertising in Variety, Billboard, and other trade rags.
I don't accept that the industry would still be swindling artists out of residuals any more than they currently do. Yes...the unions in my industry at one time were critical, and I believe this is so of most industries. And unions still do good in some industries, IMO. But when an industry grows as large as UAW or some of the other behemoths out there that they are a business unto themselves paying gross fees to their administrators....then they need to be burned down and rebuilt or eradicated altogether.
I pay my dues, because it means I can jump on a production in a heartbeat with no thought of paperwork. I grumble and moan when it comes that time. I am *not* a member of any musicians union at this time, but I still get my royalties and broadcast fees, along with very specific accounting. iTunes and other distribution outlets help tremendously in tracking this. It's true that the unions help keep some things more safe on a set, sometimes too safe, if there is such a thing, but IMO this is more the exception than the rule. Hell, today, practicals are avoided mostly because of the unions, putting many union workers out of business. It can be done in post now, for far more cheaply than bringing in a crew, so....it's a very sharp double-edged sword.
I recently needed to shoot a key and found it cheaper to build my own cyc in a large room in Arizona, fly a crew from Utah to AZ, hire the gear, and stay for a week, than it would have cost me to do the exact same shoot in a union house with union ops in Burbank. In other words, I could build, rent, hotel/travel, my four own guys, rented gear, one week, than I could do my gear, rented room, two union guys, three days.

Long post...but I don't for one second accept that the AAAA affiliates are in any way responsible for residuals being paid. They do keep a lot of good people not working, and they do keep sets safe in production. But those are different unions.
I'll take a non-union gig with names or houses I know, over a union gig in a house I know, any day/every day. I have zero loyalty to these guys, and they have zero loyalty to me, other than holding certain projects hostage in some locations.
BTW, it's one of the reasons I live where I do.

[Gawain 0]

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How do you feel about the increasing number of companies that have reneged on their former workers' pensions?

If pensions were a "right" I might have an issue with it. I was with one of the Fortune 10 companies when they made a major shift in their pension structure. Depending on time in the company, it either stayed the same or got worse.

Want to know what I'm doing? I'm saving my money myself, even though I will get certain pension benefits down the road, because...you never know.

Unskilled labor in nearly every other sector of the economy does not have even the existence of a "pension" in the fashion that the big-three have.

It won't last, and the UAW needs to represent a gainful benefit for its members. This is usually done on the basis of performance. A 30-year wrench turner won't like it, but fresh blood will make the auto maker shine. It's why the non-union shops from the Japanese-Big-Three are running circles around the American automakers.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 1,660]

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How do you feel about the increasing number of companies that have reneged on their former workers' pensions?

If pensions were a "right" I might have an issue with it. .

I was thinking of cases where the pension agreement with the workers had been unilaterally breached by the company and the burden shifted to the taxpayer, as has happened with several airlines over the past few years.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

The primary reason unions came about in the first place was unethical and exploitive behavior by companies, and union organizers saw this and thought, "They can't unethically exploit workers. Only WE can unethically exploit workers."

Unions are what they claim to despise.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[idrankwhat 0]

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In general, it's pretty smarmy. Even with profitable companies, the rising ratio of CEO pay to average employee pay has gotten way out of hand.

1980, average CEO salary was 42 times the average worker.
2005, average CEO salary was 411 times the average worker.

[pirana 0]

Boilermakers - as a Burner/Welder/Fitter for 3 years at a plant in the Chicago area that manufactured and repaired railroad cars.

Teamsters - as a Materials Handler (read department flunky) for 1 year at a plant in Chicago area that manufactured restaurant equipment. (We had the contract for all the McD's griddles).

Amalgamated Hotel/Motel, Bartender, Waitress, and Hospitality Industry Workers of America United (or something like that) - 2 times, for a total of about 3 years, both as a bartender.

All 3 were little more than a payroll deduction from my perspective. They were all vestiges left over from a time when workers REALLY needed unions to protect them. IMO, we now have laws and regulations that do that without having to pay ridiculous initiation fees and monthly dues.

They all did more harm than good by:

<> Protecting slugs that should have been axed.
<> Giving slugs the same status as those that worked hard in an effort to get ahead. Getting ahead by working hard is frowned upon in hard-core union environments. I actually got warned by my manager once, and got nasty notes from operators on the other shifts about blowing away the production numbers on my machine.
<> Creating an unecessarily adversarial relationship between mismanagement and the wage slaves. (I use those as endearing terms. I think everybody plays the role they choose. There is no reason we couldn't have gotten on much better, but many people could not get past the us v. them environment fostered by and nurtured by small thinkers on both sides).

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rehmwa 2]

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many people could not get past the us v. them environment fostered by and nurtured by small thinkers on both sides).

Ya THINK???

Look at this thread....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pirana 0]

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Another thing to consider is capable CEOs are a pretty rare commodity. The marketplace essentially dictates how much they are paid.

Absolutely. We put up with that all the time, and especially being in health insurance, for some reason a lot of people think the CEO should work for less. They know very little about the supply and demand for the talent, or even lees about what it takes to do the job; but they are certain about being overpaid.

Our CEO manages an organization of just over 4000 employees, with a cash flow in the 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 billion $ range, and he makes just about a million per year. (Anfd that is the top end if he realizes deferred incentives, retirement benefits, etc.). Nowadays, that is a very good bargain for hiring a CEO for an operation of that magnitude.

They do get a bit of an eye-opener when our regulators publish the annual report for insurance executives (required by law in MN). At Mother Blue, a non-profit, our CEO gets a total package of about a million, the for-profits are between double and many many times that amount.

May I get on my soapbox here and advocate that all aspects of health care delivery (clinics, hospitals, insurance companies, and the like) should be required to operate as non-profits. IMO, shareholder profits and patient health too often represent a direct conflict of interest. Unfortunately, the trend is going the other way.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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many people could not get past the us v. them environment fostered by and nurtured by small thinkers on both sides).

Ya THINK???

Look at this thread....

Probably a bit guilty myself. But it is only because I suffered repression of my potential at the hands of the unions as a youngster. I probably need a shrink, and really ought to sue somebody, . . . anybody.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Gawain 0]

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How do you feel about the increasing number of companies that have reneged on their former workers' pensions?

If pensions were a "right" I might have an issue with it. .

I was thinking of cases where the pension agreement with the workers had been unilaterally breached by the company and the burden shifted to the taxpayer, as has happened with several airlines over the past few years.

Many airlines shifted their pension structure in a similar fashion to what happened at my old company.

As for your example, I would reason that it's a result of them being regarded as sacred cows in their industry in this country, there will likely be continued artificial support from the government to some degree.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!