Girls suspended over 'Vagina Monologues'

[Andy9o8 0]

"Get thee to a nunnery."

Nunnery being a colloquialism of the time for "whorehouse". Clearly an anti-Catholic bashing of nuns and convents, and a glorification of prostitution, promiscuity and sexual exploitation of women.

Hamlet clearly is not appropriate to teach in our schools.

[willard 0]

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"Get thee to a nunnery."

Nunnery being a colloquialism of the time for "whorehouse". Clearly an anti-Catholic bashing of nuns and convents, and a glorification of prostitution, promiscuity and sexual exploitation of women.

Hamlet clearly is not appropriate to teach in our schools.

But the references to incest should balance all of that!

[narcimund 0]

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Again: the censorship occurred prior to the production. The girls weren't suspended for using the word. They were suspended for deliberately disobeying an order given to them, in advance, to refrain from using the word.

That's a subtle distinction. Perhaps you should go further in explaining how they're not just two ways of saying the same thing.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Andy9o8 0]

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Again: the censorship occurred prior to the production. The girls weren't suspended for using the word. They were suspended for deliberately disobeying an order given to them, in advance, to refrain from using the word.

That's a subtle distinction. Perhaps you should go further in explaining how they're not just two ways of saying the same thing.

Well, there is some subtle overlap. I acknowledge that rules have no teeth without enforcement, and it can be said that the suspension was a form of enforcement of the censoring rule. But the suspension was also enforcement of the school's broader right to issue orders to its students, especially juvenile students, to regulate their conduct on school grounds and/or at school-connected events. (And this performance was conducted on school grounds.)

Schools have a broad -- albeit not totally unlimited -- right to regulate their (especially juvenile) students' conduct while on school grounds and/or at school-connected events. This includes the school's right to define, set and enforce "decency standards" in regulating certain types of expression by its students on school grounds. Now, here's where blanket rules are difficult; rather, it must be taken on a case-by-case basis. Fact-specific context can be crucial. So, for example, I think many courts would rule that schools need to give greater (not absolute) leeway to a student's right to political expression in school than to a student's right to literary expression. (Can they ever overlap? Of course.) And a rule prohibiting students from using the word "vagina", in curriculum-related context, for example in health or science class, would probably have a tough time in most appellate courts.

Anyhow, it's not like the kids were only told of the prohibition minutes before presentation, thereby effectively depriving them of the opportunity to appeal. They were told of it some time in advance, when they first auditioned. And so, if they were so inclined (and as a court would consider relevant), they could have challenged the rule itself on 1st Amendment grounds - maybe to the school principal, maybe to the District Superintendent, maybe to the school board, maybe to a court. But instead, they deliberately violated a conduct rule set by the school. Because (a) the expression was not strictly educational or strictly political, but was literary and was done as part of an optional activity, and (b) the girls did not appeal the rule before the performance, but merely defied the order, I think most courts would rule that the suspension was related mainly to the deliberate defiance of the school's authority, and not (or at least less so) the censorship.

[DaVinci 0]

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Agreed. An out of context line is an insane reason to judge any play... the same could be done of Shakespeare or anything else.

How do you take "it was a good rape" said by a teenager about sexual contact with an adult out of context?

The play is a good play, but please don't claim it does not say/do what it clearly does. And yes, you say that about many plays...Sophocles’s play Antigone where Creon continues to stand by his position about how he could send his son’s future bride to a probable death Creon responds, “There are places enough for him to push his plow, I want no wicked women for my sons”. (Scene 2)
It was written in 441 BC.

And none of that has to do with the reason they were punished. They were told not to do it and they did.

[DZJ 0]

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And none of that has to do with the reason they were punished. They were told not to do it and they did.

Surely though, you're missing the point. They were told not to do it for no good reason.

[Andy9o8 0]

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And none of that has to do with the reason they were punished. They were told not to do it and they did.

Surely though, you're missing the point. They were told not to do it for no good reason.

No, they were told not to do it for a discretionary reason, which you (and, FWIW, I) happen to feel is not a very good reason.

[DaVinci 0]

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Surely though, you're missing the point. They were told not to do it for no good reason.

You are missing the entire point. There are two issues. The school not allowing the use of that word, and them doing it anyway. They were told not to and did it anyway. They were punished for *that* action.

You can debate the reason they were told no, but that has nothing to do with why they were punished. And THEY could have fought it BEFORE they broke a rule they knew about.

So, I am not missing the point. They did something they were told not to do and were punished for it.

Now, some other info that makes this whole thing even dumber.

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Breslin, the school board president, said the episode highlights a need for a closer examination of school policy — especially considering another student wasn’t challenged for using the “F word” during his reading the same night.

So, while I have no problem with these students being suspended for doing what they were told not to do, I do see a problem with how the school decides what is OK.

[sundevil777 94]

I am really surprised that the play was allowed at all. If I were the principal, there is no way that I would want the potential grief that could accompany that play. Is there a portion of the play that is something other than a detailed discussion of the vagina and overt sexuality? How could the play be worth seeing if you left out the word vagina? Did they replace it with another word? Is there a shortage of good plays for schools to perform? I'm not a prude, but I do think it should be easy to decide to leave this play out of consideration, that should have been an easy decision.

Romeo and Juliet got married at an early age, but that was ordinary at the time, and they were both young, I believe. The suicide in Romeo and Juliet is portrayed as a tragedy, a bad decision. The "good rape" in the Vagina Monologues is portrayed as a positive event in the girls life. I don't remember Romeo and Juliet including long detailed discussions about their genitals. Big difference, I think.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Andy9o8 0]

I think we've all acknowledged we understand: you don't like the play.

[narcimund 0]

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I think we've all acknowledged we understand: you don't like the play.

And he hasn't seen it. Those two go together. You can't have proper ideological indignation without a hearty helping of purely speculative dismissal.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[peregrinerose 0]

The play was not performed, only an excerpt from the play. I don't know what excerpt was used.... not all of the play is overtly sexual in nature. I agree that the entire play probably would not be appropriate for a high school performance, however an excerpt (depending on the excerpt) could be appropriate.

I'm not sure what personal vendetta you have against the Vagina Monologues, but based on some of the things you said, 2 months ago, I probably would have agreed with you. But then I decided to actually see the play. My opinion changed. The scene with the 13 year old... the whole story is that the woman was interviewed while she was in prison. She was raped by her mother's boyfriend, then raped by the woman several years later, and abandoned by that same woman after the one night. It was a very sad story, not glamorous at all. Shitty things happen to people... that's the point.... bringing something to light is not the same thing as glorifying it.

This is wayyyy off track here, but this thread has so many branches now it's insane.

Back on topic, the girls' suspension is actually on hold pending further review, and Eve Ensler (writer of the play) will be lecturing at the school.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[billvon 2,425]

>Back on topic, the girls' suspension is actually on hold pending further
>review, and Eve Ensler (writer of the play) will be lecturing at the school.

And thus the principal has ensured that everyone in the school will become familiar with The Vagina Monologues, and that the quote he felt inappropriate will be read by everyone in the district.

[kallend 1,643]

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>Back on topic, the girls' suspension is actually on hold pending further
>review, and Eve Ensler (writer of the play) will be lecturing at the school.

And thus the principal has ensured that everyone in the school will become familiar with The Vagina Monologues, and that the quote he felt inappropriate will be read by everyone in the district.

Tout ca change...

When I was in school it was Lady Chatterly's Lover that was forbidden, which positively absolutely guaranteed that every kid would read it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[peregrinerose 0]

I thought it was the word 'vagina' that was not permitted, but that the remainder of the text was fine?

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[ExAFO 0]

ahem..."VAGINA!!"

heh.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[peregrinerose 0]

You're suspended

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[ExAFO 0]

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You're suspended

Corporal Punishment?

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[sundevil777 94]

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I think we've all acknowledged we understand: you don't like the play.

And he hasn't seen it. Those two go together. You can't have proper ideological indignation without a hearty helping of purely speculative dismissal.

WRONG! It is often considered hypocritical to denounce others for claiming to read minds, and then to do it yourself. Please stop pretending to be able to read mine.

I saw about 2/3 of the play on HBO. It was quite some time ago. Of course each performance, by different actors is different. Sometimes the little girl getting the "good rape" is 13, sometimes she's 16. Before I started the thread that I linked, I found some transcripts to read.

Were you in too much of a hurry to write your snide reply to notice the part of my post where I asked the question, "Is there a portion of the play that is something other than a detailed discussion of the vagina and overt sexuality?" Well, is there? Have you seen it? Do you remember all of it well enough to answer the question? I don't remember all of it, but it seemed chock full of stuff that I can't imagine being in a school play, but I allowed that there may have been a portion that would be OK.

I understand that it is a lot more fun for you to ridicule than to address the underlying issues of this thread. You enjoy pissing off conservatives and ridicule will usually piss off people, so no surprise.

Your stated position of not communicating with those you judge not intellectually worthy certainly makes it easy to ridicule without addressing issues. Perhaps another Weee! or Whooosh! in the next reply will help you express your superiority.

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You can't have proper ideological indignation without a hearty helping of purely speculative dismissal.

That describes you quite well.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 94]

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>Back on topic, the girls' suspension is actually on hold pending further
>review, and Eve Ensler (writer of the play) will be lecturing at the school.

And thus the principal has ensured that everyone in the school will become familiar with The Vagina Monologues, and that the quote he felt inappropriate will be read by everyone in the district.

I think just performing a portion of the play was enough to do that. That is the point, I think. It was a bad decision to do it at all. No way can that play be performed without bringing grief upon the administration of the school. Performing even a portion of such a play that depicts pedophilia as a good thing and if full of overt sexuality is not appropriate for a school, I think.

To peregrinerose:

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The scene with the 13 year old... the whole story is that the woman was interviewed while she was in prison. She was raped by her mother's boyfriend, then raped by the woman several years later, and abandoned by that same woman after the one night. It was a very sad story, not glamorous at all.

It was described as a "good rape". I don't believe that characterization was denounced in the play.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,425]

>When I was in school it was Lady Chatterly's Lover that was forbidden . . .

Yep. I went to a catholic school, and in our case it was The Meaning of Life that we were forbidden to see - which guaranteed that everyone would see it.

[Lindsey 0]

and for us, Catcher in the Rye

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[sundevil777 94]

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>When I was in school it was Lady Chatterly's Lover that was forbidden . . .

Yep. I went to a catholic school, and in our case it was The Meaning of Life that we were forbidden to see - which guaranteed that everyone would see it.

There is a big difference between not showing the film in the school, and the school making it forbidden to be seen anywhere. Big difference.

The Meaning of Life was fantastic, but I've been a fan of theirs since their series first aired in the US.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,425]

>It was a bad decision to do it at all.

?? They didn't. They read a short excerpt.

And you know, if they had done a piece from Romeo and Juliet, and no one had said anything, then no one would have cared. Had the principal threatened to suspend them for "disobeying" his order to not do Romeo and Juliet, then some people would now be outraged - OUTRAGED! - over the presentation of a play that glorifies underage sex and suicide. We as a country need to grow back our spine.

>Performing even a portion of such a play that depicts pedophilia as a
>good thing and if full of overt sexuality is not appropriate for a school, I think.

Well, it's a whole lot better than most of Shakespeare's stuff, even though a reading of Shakespeare at the same event got no notice (and thus no notoriety.)

[Lindsey 0]

But saying "vagina" is so vulgar and dirty....lol. Ya' gotta admire those brazen girls....but really, if they agreed not to say 'vagina' in public they shouldn't have done it. But being 17 or so makes it so hard to keep your mouth shut. Hell, being 40 makes it almost equally hard to shut up.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail