JohnnyD 0 #26 February 16, 2007 Quote You know, I'm really getting fed up with the whole world expecting the USA to do all the spending of blood and treasure, while they all sit back and criticize every effort my country makes. . What is unusual about criticizing poor decisions and failures? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,450 #27 February 16, 2007 >this is exacerbated in the USA because we only hear / see what >the mainstream media want us to hear / see. Hmm. About the only exposure to news shows I get is at the bagel store, because CNN is always on there. (And right now it's Anna Nicole Smith Is Still Dead 24/7.) Most of my news comes from pull, not push, and I think more and more people are doing that as it becomes easier. >Unlike the Europeans, we can't just hop in a car or train and ride a while >and get to a different country and actually get the opinions of our fellow >man-on-the-street. ?? I (and most Southern Californians) can. That goes for most of Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Washington, Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, New York, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. I don't know how much of the people in the country that is, but given that it includes Los Angeles, New York, Chicago and Phoenix, it's a significant part of our population. Also, we are fortunate in that skydivers tend to travel to the US to jump here. At our DZ we have germans, brits, norwegians, swiss, canadians, australians and new zealanders. Occasionally I will get one of them talking (it takes a while; most are very hesitant to talk about politics) As skydivers we have similar opportunities. You can walk onto just about any DZ in the world and be welcomed as another skydiver, instead of as an american. For bigway types, World Team is a great opportunity to meet hundreds of people from around the world. >The majority of the European powers give lip service to peacekeeping >and send token forces, expecting the USA (and the UK) to do all the >heavy lifting. It's that arrogant presumption I object to the most. . . I think if you had the opportunities discussed above to meet those from outside the US, your opinion might change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,450 #28 February 16, 2007 >I have friends in the group you so dismissively describe. They've been >in that shithole that's Iraq. Been shot at, seen their friends killed. Come >back home as different and not better men. Just to let you know, most americans _do_ appreciate their efforts. I have three friends who served in Iraq who were not from the US, and they came back safely (fortunately!) Their views are perhaps the most illuminating of anyone from Iraq I've talked to, because they have been there but feel no need to "toe the line" on US policy in Iraq. I consider them the least biased sources I've come across as to what's 'really' happening there, and I am grateful they were willing to help us out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #29 February 17, 2007 QuoteTo be fair many of the countries that objected had their hand in the till. Like France, Germany and Russia as Kallend conveniently mentioned above. All countries are motivated by self-interest, but in the end, it's always the USA that takes it in the nuts. If those countries really cared about stability in the Middle East, they'd put their money (and blood) where their mouth is, but their governments are still under the false illusion that they can work deals with whoever the winner is in Iraq; they just don't want it to be the Iraqi people themselves. That would be bad for business. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #30 February 17, 2007 QuoteI think if you had the opportunities discussed above to meet those from outside the US, your opinion might change. Umm, Bill, I see a LOT of them on a regular basis over here. There are some 30 countries with troops in Kosovo (total ~16,000, including the US forces). mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #31 February 17, 2007 QuoteHey markharju. I have friends in the group you so dismissively describe. They've been in that shithole that's Iraq. Been shot at, seen their friends killed. Come back home as different and not better men. I'll let them know there are pro-military Americans who think they ain't shit and their sacrifice is a token one. I just hope they won't kick the crap outta me for it. Not every country has over 300 million people. Some have 5 and a small military force. Proportions, dude. The world don't expect the US to fix everything wrong with it. If anything, the world expected the US not to fuck things up more than they already were in the Middle East. When the US did these loyal friends still stood by despite international outcry and political pressure not to. And you deign to tell me that the sacrifice is worthless and just token. You may just be venting, but think of your post in this light; would you say what you wrote to the face of one of these men I mentioned? If you would do that you either got bigger balls than me or is one helluva fighter. Well, now you know how I feel when our troops are spat upon and called "baby killer". It's happening RIGHT NOW. However, if you re-read my remarks, you will note that I was critical of government policy, not of those with their boots on the ground. They're the ones who bear the brunt of governmental decisions, because as I've said elsewhere, a soldier is an instrument of policy. It isn't his job to make policy. We've got the exact same problem over here, where people say they support the troops but are critical of policy. It's easy to put the blame on the troops themselves, because they are the most visible part of policy, whereas the truth is that the decisions are made by fat wealthy men thousands of kilometers away who've never worn their country's uniform or heard or seen a shot fired in anger. I have, and it's terrifiying. Please be assured that the troops have my utmost respect, where ever they may be from (Romania has just sent a mission to Iraq, btw - who'da thunk?). mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #32 February 17, 2007 <INstability in the Middle East>> Oh, thanks America. I truely dont understand how the rest of the world would has 'gotten' this far without your outstanding contribution to stability and world peace. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #33 February 17, 2007 Quote<INstability in the Middle East>> Oh, thanks America. I truely dont understand how the rest of the world would has 'gotten' this far without your outstanding contribution to stability and world peace. How about a Europe free of communism? I could go on and on, but your comment doesn't merit further reply. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #34 February 17, 2007 So attacking Iraq has made the middle east more stable..... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #35 February 17, 2007 QuoteSo attacking Iraq has made the middle east more stable..... Getting rid of a despotic ruler who brutalized his own people and attacked two neighboring countries and threatened others and supported international terrorism is somehow "destablizing". Okay. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #36 February 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo attacking Iraq has made the middle east more stable..... Getting rid of a despotic ruler who brutalized his own people and attacked two neighboring countries and threatened others and supported international terrorism is somehow "destablizing". Okay. mh . Considering that the US is killing thousands innocents in collateral damage, torturing hundreds on offshore prisons, its next target will likely be the neighbour Iran , sells weapons to dictators and fight proxy wars with WMD, I am confused who you are talking about... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #37 February 17, 2007 How many innocent men/women & kids did we kill in the process and that was NOT the advertised reason for this Boys Own Adventure. Also, how many of ours have we lost and what was the financial cost of rem oving 1 man and a few of his croanies? There is far more violence in that part of the world than before so yes of course it's less stable. has it been worth it? Has it Fuck (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #38 February 17, 2007 QuoteThere is far more violence in that part of the world than before so yes of course it's less stable.You might want to ask any of those who showed any opposition to SH, if they could actually speak. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,265 #39 February 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteThere is far more violence in that part of the world than before so yes of course it's less stable.You might want to ask any of those who showed any opposition to SH, if they could actually speak. What has that got to do with stability?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #40 February 17, 2007 You might want to ask any of those who innocently died in Iraq from Aliied fire, if they could actually speak. Also, if we had given a shite about what SH had been up to, we'd have done something about during the 1st Gulf War. It was never about people. After all, there are far worse dictators around the world. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,660 #41 February 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo attacking Iraq has made the middle east more stable..... Getting rid of a despotic ruler who brutalized his own people and attacked two neighboring countries and threatened others and supported international terrorism is somehow "destablizing". Okay. mh . It has been highly destabilizing the half-assed way we did it. The evidence is just overwhelming.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,660 #42 February 17, 2007 QuoteYou might want to ask any of those who innocently died in Iraq from Aliied fire, if they could actually speak. Also, if we had given a shite about what SH had been up to, we'd have done something about during the 1st Gulf War. . How about during the Iran-Iraq war, instead of HELPING SH. I recall a certain photo of SH shaking hands with Rumsfeld. We didn't give a flying f**k what SH was doing until our selfish interests were threatened.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #43 February 17, 2007 But, we forget, there are a number of people around here that have a different view on reality.... The truth will be somewhere between my model and theirs (but, clearly, somewhat closer to mine) (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,265 #44 February 17, 2007 QuoteBut, we forget, there are a number of people around here that have a different view on reality.... The truth will be somewhere between my model and theirs (but, clearly, somewhat closer to mine) When there are two radically opposed views of reality, the truth does not neccesarily lie between the two. Sometimes one side is just plain wrongDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #45 February 17, 2007 Well it's not me .... stands to reason (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
