StreetScooby 5 #1 August 25, 2006 Introduction ============ This thread is a continuation of the following threads: Introduction - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2396715;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Language - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2398138;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Science - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2399827;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Observations - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2400882;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Correlations - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2401392;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Summary ======= This thread proposes a person's direct link to God. Discussion ========== Over the course of my life, I spent a period of time heavily involved in meditation, and in general pursuing a better understanding of God than that provided in my upbringing. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to classify a person's experience into two broad areas: 1) Feeling 2) Thinking Specifically, I'm going to discuss "change", as defined in the Correlations thread, in these areas. Most change that occurs within the body comes from biochemical reservoirs of energy. In the thinking area, I've classifed my personal observations into 3 areas: 1) Daydreaming - thoughts skit from one to another. Change is happening. 2) Concentration - thoughts shine light on a subject matter. Change is happening. 3) Still mind - very difficult state to attain. No change is happening. When change is happening in our thought process, specifically those thoughts we control via what I will refer to as "free will", what are the reservoirs of energy involved? If you believe that free will is biochemically based, then essentially humans are worm food waiting to happen. But, what if free will isn't biochemically based? What are the reservoirs of energy involved in the change? In simple terms, we don't know. Just because we don't know doesn't mean those unidentified reservoirs of energy don't exist. I assert that when we exercise our free will, we're directly interacting with unknown reservoir(s) of energy, which some will refer to as God. We can go so far as to lump those unidentified reservoir(s) of energy into what I'll call, for the lack of a better phrase, the Fabric Of The Universe. Exercise your free will, and that Fabric acts back. Newton said the 1st Law originally using the word force, i.e., action/reaction. God is NOT some divine entity that sits above us and judges us. It's a great flow that IS. You interact with it via your free will. Stilling your thoughts is hugely powerful, in that you become "one" with these unknown reservoirs of energy (i.e., there is no flow, thus the "potential" is the same between yourself and the Fabric). This is an area where our science hasn't proven to be very successful, probably due to the burden of language. My point going forward ====================== Our thoughts are very real. Keep them positive. It's how we shape our existence in this world. God is best viewed as a verb, not a noun.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #2 August 27, 2006 Bump. I was really hoping to get some comment or feedback on this.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #3 August 27, 2006 You've not gone and run out of your patience reservoir have you?Edited to add: Jesus loves you. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #4 August 27, 2006 LOL!! We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #5 August 27, 2006 I'm glad - I read over your theories and felt, as you said yourself, they're more assertions rather than facts.(hey, they wouldn't be theories then would they?) I think better explanations of your assertions might make them more understandable, and allow wider debate. However, I feel you can't classify a persons experience into your two areas of feeling and thinking, whether for the purposes of your discussion or to assert something completely inane such as supporting the man in the moon actually did tumble down and ask his way to Norwich. Or perhaps I'm just being an argumentative fucker. I also think a bit of google time would bring up some explanations in regards to the mental energy used by our thought processes regarding change. But this is my assertion. Perhaps I'm wrong? Perhaps I could of googled some logical answers myself and looked smart? In a similar sense I've often wondered where all our energy goes when we die. When we just slip away - in our sleep or unconscious state. Does it transfer in some method we're unaware of, to the 'fabric of the universe' you mention? It has to go somewhere does it not? Regarding your assertion of how we exercise free will and how it relates to God seems a sound enough theory if I'm understanding you right. But that's the problem. I'm not quite sure I am. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #6 August 27, 2006 QuoteBump. I was really hoping to get some comment or feedback on this. OK, but if I come out and say what I think, I will probably get banned.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #7 August 27, 2006 Quote I think better explanations of your assertions might make them more understandable, and allow wider debate. How can I do better? Quote I feel you can't classify a persons experience into your two areas of feeling and thinking, Ok, that's a fair statement. Over many years, I've tried to simplify this argument. My main point was the change in the thought process that occurs due to free will - what are the reservoirs of energy involved? Quote I also think a bit of google time would bring up some explanations in regards to the mental energy used by our thought processes regarding change. What phrase did you Google? Quote Regarding your assertion of how we exercise free will and how it relates to God seems a sound enough theory if I'm understanding you right. I've spent alot of time thinking about this. I'm also trying to refine it, thus the reason for putting it out in this forum. There's alot of smart people that contribute here. Thanks for your input. Quote But that's the problem. I'm not quite sure I am. I think you have it. Change is the keyword. Anytime there is change, there's a flow of energy.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #8 August 27, 2006 Quote OK, but if I come out and say what I think, I will probably get banned. I doubt you'll be banned. PM me if you want. I'd love to hear your feedback We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #9 August 29, 2006 Bump. Is this all the commentary I'm going to get for this thread?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #10 August 29, 2006 QuoteBump. Is this all the commentary I'm going to get for this thread?yes scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #11 August 29, 2006 Ah, shit We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #12 August 29, 2006 OK, since you seem quite keen on some feedback, here's my $0.02 worth. QuoteIf you believe that free will is biochemically based, then essentially humans are worm food waiting to happen All the evidence I'm aware of does indeed suggest that brain function is chemically based. QuoteBut, what if free will isn't biochemically based? What are the reservoirs of energy involved in the change? In simple terms, we don't know. Just because we don't know doesn't mean those unidentified reservoirs of energy don't exist. Nor does it mean that any such "resevoirs" do exist. Basically, all you've done here is to postulate something for which you have no evidence, in spite of lots of evidence to the contrary. QuoteI assert that when we exercise our free will, we're directly interacting with unknown reservoir(s) of energy, which some will refer to as God. And now you're asserting that this unknown resevior interacts with your brain somehow and the net result is free will? Even though you don't know if this resevior even exists? I don't advise a haircut, man. All hairdressers are in the employment of the government. Hairs are your aerials. They pick up signals from the cosmos, and transmit them directly into the brain. This is the reason bald-headed men are uptight. - Danny, Withnail and I. QuoteWe can go so far as to lump those unidentified reservoir(s) of energy into what I'll call, for the lack of a better phrase, the Fabric Of The Universe. Exercise your free will, and that Fabric acts back. Newton said the 1st Law originally using the word force, i.e., action/reaction. Sounds a bit like Aristotle's luminiferous Ether which was shot down in the 19th century by Michelson and Morley. So shouldn't free will should be dependent on where you are in the universe and the amount of stuff there is around you? QuoteGod is NOT some divine entity that sits above us and judges us. It's a great flow that IS. You interact with it via your free will. Why just free will interactions? What happens if I involuntarily get hit by a bus? QuoteStilling your thoughts is hugely powerful, in that you become "one" with these unknown reservoirs of energy (i.e., there is no flow, thus the "potential" is the same between yourself and the Fabric). Powerful how? QuoteThis is an area where our science hasn't proven to be very successful, probably due to the burden of language. Or maybe science hasn't been successful in proving your point because there's no evidence of a brain/luminiferous Ether interaction? Bottom line: I see lots of assertions and if's without any supporting evidence and the whole thing doesn't seem to fit with what is known about brain functions and the fabric of the universe. It needs work I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #13 August 29, 2006 Quote It needs work I think. Thus, the reason for posting it here. Thanks for the feedback. We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #14 August 29, 2006 Your profile makes it difficult for me to asses "my audience" in this reply. FYI. I'm going to give it my best shot. Thanks again for your input. Quote Quote If you believe that free will is biochemically based, then essentially humans are worm food waiting to happen All the evidence I'm aware of does indeed suggest that brain function is chemically based. Sounds reasonable. Is all of your evidence medical-literature based? By evidence, do you mean "reproducible observations"? Not that I'm advocating these as generally valid observations, but there is a whole body of "reproducible observations" in what is generally classifed as "occult literature". Quote Quote But, what if free will isn't biochemically based? What are the reservoirs of energy involved in the change? In simple terms, we don't know. Just because we don't know doesn't mean those unidentified reservoirs of energy don't exist. Nor does it mean that any such "resevoirs" do exist. Agreed 100%. All I've done in my life learnings at this point in time is - learn to deal with the uncertainty of life. I'm still working on it, actually. God is NOT "someone" who is going to look out after me if I pray to it. It's a verb, a flow. You're in that flow. Learn to look out after yourself in the "now". Don't hit the big rocks. Quote Basically, all you've done here is to postulate something for which you have no evidence, Yep, I have most definitely postulated something for which I have no reproducible observations. Quote in spite of lots of evidence to the contrary. Can you point me to some literature here to support your statement, even if it's your own? Thanks. There's also alot of "evidence" that can be claimed to support the "postulation". BTW, I prefer the word assert over postulate, though I wish there was a word in between those two. Quote Quote I assert that when we exercise our free will, we're directly interacting with unknown reservoir(s) of energy, which some will refer to as God. And now you're asserting that this unknown resevior interacts with your brain somehow and the net result is free will? Even though you don't know if this resevior even exists? I don't advise a haircut, man. All hairdressers are in the employment of the government. Hairs are your aerials. They pick up signals from the cosmos, and transmit them directly into the brain. This is the reason bald-headed men are uptight. - Danny, Withnail and I. Quote And now you're asserting that this unknown resevior interacts with your brain somehow... It's the change in your thoughts, specifically those thoughts driven by free will, by which we tend to interact with those "unknown reservoirs of energy". Quote ...and the net result is free will? No. We already have free will. It's the one thing I believe will continue to exist after my current body's death. It's free will that drives the change, or lack thereof, in your thoughts. Quote Even though you don't know if this resevior even exists? Yep. It's better than viewing myself as worm food Quote Quote We can go so far as to lump those unidentified reservoir(s) of energy into what I'll call, for the lack of a better phrase, the Fabric Of The Universe. Exercise your free will, and that Fabric acts back. Newton said the 1st Law originally using the word force, i.e., action/reaction. Sounds a bit like Aristotle's luminiferous Ether which was shot down in the 19th century by Michelson and Morley. Not to compare myself to Aristotle, but actually I'm kinda looking for my Michelson and Morley. With little success, so far, I might add Just another reason why I've thrown this out here. Quote So shouldn't free will should be dependent on where you are in the universe and the amount of stuff there is around you? Did you mean to say dependent? Quote Quote God is NOT some divine entity that sits above us and judges us. It's a great flow that IS. You interact with it via your free will. Why just free will interactions? What happens if I involuntarily get hit by a bus? Exactly. God is a flow. Each and every person is their own unique reservoir of energy, as made by God. It's a beautiful thing. Quote Quote Stilling your thoughts is hugely powerful, in that you become "one" with these unknown reservoirs of energy (i.e., there is no flow, thus the "potential" is the same between yourself and the Fabric). Powerful how? Oops. I jumped a bit ahead of myself. We're not their, yet. Quote Quote This is an area where our science hasn't proven to be very successful, probably due to the burden of language. Or maybe science hasn't been successful in proving your point because there's no evidence of a brain/luminiferous Ether interaction? You're right. Reproducible observations in this area simply aren't "there" yet. All I've described here is my attempt to reconcile God and my understanding of science. FYI - I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian church in the deep south. My goal until I was 16 was to be a Southern Baptist preacher. Then, I went to college, and was taught Thermodynamics. Quote Bottom line: I see lots of assertions and if's without any supporting evidence and the whole thing doesn't seem to fit with what is known about brain functions and the fabric of the universe. You're right. I have no supporting evidence/reproducible observations. Other than a couple of OBEs, and discussions with others who've had similar experiences. Quote It needs work I think. And, here we are We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #15 August 30, 2006 QuoteIn a similar sense I've often wondered where all our energy goes when we die. When we just slip away - in our sleep or unconscious state. Does it transfer in some method we're unaware of, to the 'fabric of the universe' you mention? It has to go somewhere does it not? Almost all the energy in a human body is locked up in the form of matter. That matter rots and decays same as in any other plant or animal that dies. It's not like there is a boatload of energy racing around inside the brain (or anywhere else in a body) that suddenly needs to escape and take on another form when a person dies. As far as the original post goes, lots of speculation, not much to go on." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #16 August 30, 2006 Quote It's not like there is a boatload of energy racing around inside the brain (or anywhere else in a body) that suddenly needs to escape and take on another form when a person dies. I can see my point hasn't been communicated clearly. In simple terms, my question is: When there is change in our thoughts, especially those thoughts driven by free will, what are the reservoirs of energy involved? Are they inside the body, or outside the body? If you feel they're inside the body, we're worm food waiting to happen. If you feel they're not contained completely within the body, what are they? We don't know. That's were God comes into this, and it comes into play better as a verb rather than a noun, IMO. Quote As far as the original post goes, lots of speculation, not much to go on. No argument. The only thing we have to go on is the 1st Law of Thermo, and self observation.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #17 August 31, 2006 Quote No argument. The only thing we have to go on is the 1st Law of Thermo, and self observation. One last bump...We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,153 #18 August 31, 2006 QuoteIn simple terms, my question is: When there is change in our thoughts, especially those thoughts driven by free will, what are the reservoirs of energy involved? Are they inside the body, or outside the body? If you feel they're inside the body, we're worm food waiting to happen. If you feel they're not contained completely within the body, what are they? We don't know. That's were God comes into this, and it comes into play better as a verb rather than a noun, IMOI would disagree with that particular division. I think that in a physical sense, we're worm food waiting to happen. I think that thoughts come from chemical stuff happening inside us. However, I've heard enough and read enough and felt enough weird stuff to think that our understanding doesn't encompass everything. There might well be some greater web, greater awareness, out there, that we by and large don't know how to tap. Some people seem to have an innate sense, on rare occasions. Those moments that make people start to hum the Twilight Zone theme song. So while the premise is an interesting one, the dividing line, in my completely late-afternoon-break opinion, is in the wrong place. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #19 September 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteAll the evidence I'm aware of does indeed suggest that brain function is chemically based. Sounds reasonable. Is all of your evidence medical-literature based? By evidence, do you mean "reproducible observations"? Try a simple experiment with a bottle of Tequila and a cross word puzzle. QuoteNot that I'm advocating these as generally valid observations, but there is a whole body of "reproducible observations" in what is generally classifed as "occult literature". Not scientifically reproducable they're not. If you can prove otherwise there is $1,000,000 waiting for you here. QuoteCan you point me to some literature here to support your statement, even if it's your own? Thanks. There's also alot of "evidence" that can be claimed to support the "postulation". I thought this New Scientist article was an interesting read. QuoteQuoteSo shouldn't free will should be dependent on where you are in the universe and the amount of stuff there is around you? Did you mean to say dependent? Yes. The mass density of the universe is not uniform and neither is the energy density. This being the case, wouldn't you expect the interaction between brain and your free will "stuff" to vary acording to how much "stuff" is in the immediate area of the brain? But then again maybe brain-universe interactions don't follow an inverse square law. Oh my, what a load of crap I just wrote QuoteYou're right. Reproducible observations in this area simply aren't "there" yet. All I've described here is my attempt to reconcile God and my understanding of science. I don't think the two can be reconciled since the idea of a god is unfalsifiable, not to mention unphysical, illogical, incoherent, blah blah blah... Although I'm still puzzled as to what free will has to do with dU=dQ+dW and how you conjugate the verb "to god" in the future perfect tense. Edit: found it! http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/go.asp?T1=god&D1=20&H1=120 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #20 September 1, 2006 Thanks for the feedback We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #21 September 1, 2006 Quote I thought this New Scientist article was an interesting read. Thanks for the article! Quote Edit: found it! http://www.verbix.com/...amp;D1=20&H1=120 LOL!!! We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #22 September 1, 2006 Quote Quote In simple terms, my question is: When there is change in our thoughts, especially those thoughts driven by free will, what are the reservoirs of energy involved? Are they inside the body, or outside the body? If you feel they're inside the body, we're worm food waiting to happen. If you feel they're not contained completely within the body, what are they? We don't know. That's were God comes into this, and it comes into play better as a verb rather than a noun, IMO Quote I would disagree with that particular division. Is there another classification you could suggest? Quote I think that in a physical sense, we're worm food waiting to happen. I think that thoughts come from chemical stuff happening inside us. However, I've heard enough and read enough and felt enough weird stuff to think that our understanding doesn't encompass everything. I've had a couple of real-life out of body experiences (OBEs). It was those personal observations that really started me asking these questions. I've also met several people who have had OBEs. OBEs count as reasonably reproducible observations, IMO. Quote There might well be some greater web, greater awareness, out there, that we by and large don't know how to tap. Some people seem to have an innate sense, on rare occasions. Those moments that make people start to hum the Twilight Zone theme song. Yep, been there, more than once. It's kind of uncomfortable. Made me give up meditation as I was pursuing it. Decided to get in an inner tube, and keep the cooler close by. Quote So while the premise is an interesting one, the dividing line, in my completely late-afternoon-break opinion, is in the wrong place. Where would you put that dividing line?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BounceEasy 0 #23 September 1, 2006 It's hard to separate thinking and feeling. Thoughts are generally driven by feeling. (we make our decisions based on emotion and then use our logic to explain our actions) Worm food doesn't sound like a lotta fun, but energy is never destroyed right? Free will by definition is simply not determined by physical or divine forces. How could you add them into the equation and still have free will? If you walk, just walk. If you sit, just sit. But whatever you do, don't wobble. - Master Ummon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #24 September 1, 2006 Quote It's hard to separate thinking and feeling. Yep. A starting point is trying to still your thoughts (i.e., meditation). Quote Thoughts are generally driven by feeling. (we make our decisions based on emotion and then use our logic to explain our actions) For most people, I would expect so. For others, not necessarily. Your statement holds water, IMO. Quote Worm food doesn't sound like a lotta fun, but energy is never destroyed right? Correct, energy is never destroyed. Quote Free will by definition is simply not determined by physical or divine forces. Agreed. But, what is it? I think it's that essence of me which will exist after my body dies. Quote How could you add them into the equation and still have free will? Excellent question! I like it! I'm not trying to put free will into an equation. I really don't know what it is. I do know it when I use it. Every time.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #25 September 21, 2006 QuoteSummary ======= This thread proposes a person's direct link to God. *God.... difficult concept to understand, even despite (or maybe because of) the Catholic Schooling. Friends and I were recently discussing God/Unseeable beings/aliens. Dale, one of my friends, gave an excellent reason for our lack of understanding. Imagine an ant. Sitting on the anthill, involved in ant life... the shadow of a truck passes over. Will the ant know what the driver of the truck was thinking.... or will the ant even recognize that the shadow belonged to a truck.... or will the ant just be glad that it isn't dark anymore and go on his merry ant way? Our ability to directly percieve other realities/dimensions is limited. However... it's not to say that we can't, in time, learn to "see" better. QuoteDiscussion ========== Over the course of my life, I spent a period of time heavily involved in meditation, and in general pursuing a better understanding of God than that provided in my upbringing. *I've recently read Running from Safety by Richard Bach (author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull) where he discusses God and the injustices in life. He first asks if God is "all-powerful" but cruel in allowing pain and suffering. Then asks if God is "all-loving" but powerless to effect change on the choices of humanity. So there are two main choices: A cruel God or a powerless God. Through the next chapter he destroys this context of thought. Replacing it with the "Life Is" way of thinking. Life is... no matter what. I liked the way that he better explained that using the number 8 as an example. That part is hard to paraphrase... but it's basically that the idea of 8 exists. We can make it appear any way we want... but it exists despite how we precieve it. And if we ignore the principle of 8, arithmetic sucks... but the number 8 still exists. QuoteFor the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to classify a person's experience into two broad areas: 1) Feeling 2) Thinking Specifically, I'm going to discuss "change", as defined in the Correlations thread, in these areas. Most change that occurs within the body comes from biochemical reservoirs of energy. *Another discussion with a different friend.... Greg once wondered if thought/spirit could be "measured" like the electorns around a nucleus with different shells or orbits. When you feel excited or active - that would be a higher energy state, but then things could fall and the potential energy would be converted to kinetic energy for something else that the body had need for. (Healing, growing) QuoteMy point going forward ====================== Our thoughts are very real. Keep them positive. It's how we shape our existence in this world. God is best viewed as a verb, not a noun. Agreed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
