Castro - dead or alive and very ill?

[miked10270 0]

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... its not difficult to see that somebody who wishes to stick there head in the sand and ignore fact will continue to do so over and over again.

That's what's known as: "Being hoist by your own Petard!"

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[miked10270 0]

A couple of interesting views... By Cubans who SPEND TIME IN CUBA!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4789052.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4789080.stm

Reasoned argument.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Steel 0]

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A couple of interesting views... By Cubans who SPEND TIME IN CUBA!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4789052.stm
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Great so one guy has his head up his ass and the socialist BBC welcomes his voice. Gee what a surprise.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4789080.stm
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Mike.

Meanwhile to pretend to show both sides they print the opinion of yet another Communist. The difference is only this guy is not in support of slaughter of 100's of thousands that oppose his stupid ideas.

The reality is that there is a reason why these stupid systems always have little to no human rights associated with them. I.E. China, Cuba, North Korea
The reason is that, in a democratic system, these jackasses would be voted out of office in a heartbeat. They can ONLY exist in an oppresive Totalitarian system.

I know that many like to point to Canada, Swedan and other countries like that and say, "see Socialism/Communism does not need to throw human rights out the window." But the fact is that in places like Canada or Swedan there are wealthy people who were successful with their careers, business or what have you. There is no question that their systems are far too Leftist for me. But there is far more opportunity there, because of democratically elected governments. The reason is because the governments that are democratically elected that don't go nearly as far to the left, as they would loose their elections.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[SkyDekker 1,152]

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The reality is that there is a reason why these stupid systems always have little to no human rights associated with them. I.E. China, Cuba, North Korea

I don't think the US has any leg to stand on when it comes to Human Rights.

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I know that many like to point to Canada, Swedan and other countries like that and say, "see Socialism/Communism does not need to throw human rights out the window."

Canada is far from a socialist country, you may want to check up on your definitions again.

[Steel 0]

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The reality is that there is a reason why these stupid systems always have little to no human rights associated with them. I.E. China, Cuba, North Korea

I don't think the US has any leg to stand on when it comes to Human Rights.

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I know that many like to point to Canada, Swedan and other countries like that and say, "see Socialism/Communism does not need to throw human rights out the window."

Canada is far from a socialist country, you may want to check up on your definitions again.

Canada prides itself in it Socialist healthcare, which incidently sucks from what I hear.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[SkyDekker 1,152]

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Canada prides itself in it Socialist healthcare, which incidently sucks from what I hear.

The system does suck and we see more and more changes in it.

That still does not make a country socialist. The US welfare system is a distinct socialist system. However, that does not make the US a socialist country.

[Steel 0]

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Canada prides itself in it Socialist healthcare, which incidently sucks from what I hear.

The system does suck and we see more and more changes in it.

That still does not make a country socialist. The US welfare system is a distinct socialist system. However, that does not make the US a socialist country.

I don't dispute that the U.S. has some socialist aspects of government, Telecom, electric companies, natural gas companies are all extremely state regulated. But still I think its a given that in the first world line up the U.S. by far the most capitalist system.

Would you argue that the Canadian government is not sinificantly more left leaning that the U.S. government?
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If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[livendive 8]

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It's not about interest. It's about the caustic, vitriolic, hate filled postings that you've made recently that do not contribute to the thread at hand. This thread, for example, is not about homosexuality, and yet you've managed to take one phrase and get all bent out of shape.

I used to look forward to your posts, Narcimund. Your wit, intelligence and subtle commentary was a joy to read and participate in. It seems that lately, all you do is wait until someone makes a comment about homosexuality, and blammo, you come in guns blazing only about that.

What is your opinion on the Cuba situation? What do you think is in their future? In all your posts on this thread, not one has addressed it. Not one. Pity, that.

Did you see the attachment entitled raul.jpg? That was somehow not caustic or vitriolic and was really pertinent to the subjects of Fidel Castro's health and the welfare of the Cuban populace, right?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[SkyDekker 1,152]

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Would you argue that the Canadian government is not sinificantly more left leaning that the U.S. government?

A couple of years ago I wouldn't have argued with you on that point. Now, with a conservative minority government in place, I would argue about the word significant. Are we more left leaning than the US: no doubt, but certainly not as far as it used to be.

That still does not make us a socialist country though, which was my original point.

[Michele 1]

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Did you see the attachment entitled raul.jpg? That was somehow not caustic or vitriolic and was really pertinent to the subjects of Fidel Castro's health and the welfare of the Cuban populace, right?

Know what, though, Dave? I see far worse caricatures and photoshopping of Bush, Rice, Cheney, et al all the time. I don't have a vitriolic response to them...I even laugh at some of the cartoonish ones. Most I dismiss out of hand as not pertinent. So there seems to be little justification, when drawing a parallel, to the rampage which occurred.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[miked10270 0]

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A couple of interesting views... By Cubans who SPEND TIME IN CUBA!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4789052.stm
----------------------------------------------------
Great so one guy has his head up his ass and the socialist BBC welcomes his voice. Gee what a surprise.
=============================

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4789080.stm
----------------------------------------------
Mike.

Meanwhile to pretend to show both sides they print the opinion of yet another Communist. The difference is only this guy is not in support of slaughter of 100's of thousands that oppose his stupid ideas.

Bruno,

Have you considered how "Totalitarian" your views on Cuba and the media coverage of it are?

You seem to act in exactly the way you accuse and complain about Castro & his regime of acting! Determined to shout down and deny any viewpoint other than your own extreme one!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Steel 0]

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Quote

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A couple of interesting views... By Cubans who SPEND TIME IN CUBA!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4789052.stm
----------------------------------------------------
Great so one guy has his head up his ass and the socialist BBC welcomes his voice. Gee what a surprise.
=============================

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4789080.stm
----------------------------------------------
Mike.

Meanwhile to pretend to show both sides they print the opinion of yet another Communist. The difference is only this guy is not in support of slaughter of 100's of thousands that oppose his stupid ideas.

Bruno,

Have you considered how "Totalitarian" your views on Cuba and the media coverage of it are?

You seem to act in exactly the way you accuse and complain about Castro & his regime of acting! Determined to shout down and deny any viewpoint other than your own extreme one!

Mike.

Because there is such a thing as a right and a wrong. If you also believe that we should take Neo Nazi's seriously and consider their jibberish, then your comparison might hold water. However, not as many people would quickly jump on your band wagon. This double standard, I think is quite sad.

,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[SkyDekker 1,152]

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Because there is such a thing as a right and a wrong. If you also believe that we should take Neo Nazi's seriously and consider their jibberish, then your comparison might hold water. However, not as many people would quickly jump on your band wagon. This double standard, I think is quite sad.

Communist cubans: We are right and you are wrong.
Steel: I am right and you are wrong.

What exactly is the difference?

[Steel 0]

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Quote

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A couple of interesting views... By Cubans who SPEND TIME IN CUBA!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4789052.stm
----------------------------------------------------
Great so one guy has his head up his ass and the socialist BBC welcomes his voice. Gee what a surprise.
=============================

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4789080.stm
----------------------------------------------
Mike.

Meanwhile to pretend to show both sides they print the opinion of yet another Communist. The difference is only this guy is not in support of slaughter of 100's of thousands that oppose his stupid ideas.

Bruno,

Have you considered how "Totalitarian" your views on Cuba and the media coverage of it are?

You seem to act in exactly the way you accuse and complain about Castro & his regime of acting!

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Are you for real? I am doing exactly what I accuse Castro of doing. I am killing thousands who oppose my viewpoints?
No, but it seems like you are playing word games trying to confuse the issue.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Steel 0]

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Because there is such a thing as a right and a wrong. If you also believe that we should take Neo Nazi's seriously and consider their jibberish, then your comparison might hold water. However, not as many people would quickly jump on your band wagon. This double standard, I think is quite sad.

Communist cubans: We are right and you are wrong.
Steel: I am right and you are wrong.

What exactly is the difference?

Difference is.

Steel doesn't have like minded individual, who say oh 200,000 people dissagree with me. Lets get the firing sqaud out there and kill them all, until nobody dares to even think about dissenting.

I just want to kill the ones directly responsible for the mass-murders, the Castros.

Many other's that you wouldn't attack here are in favor of the death penalty. I think directly and indirectly killing hundreds of thousands definately call for the death penalty.
,
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[SkyDekker 1,152]

you are still not getting it.....nobody was saying you would kill thousands. What was being said was that your debating technique is awefully similar to those used by the communist cubans. Any other viewpoint is immediately dismissed as being stupid. It doesn't help any argument on either side. Hope you get it now.

[Steel 0]

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you are still not getting it.....nobody was saying you would kill thousands. What was being said was that your debating technique is awefully similar to those used by the communist cubans. Any other viewpoint is immediately dismissed as being stupid. It doesn't help any argument on either side. Hope you get it now.

So, I ask again. Would you NOT imediately dissmiss the viewpoint of a Neo Nazi as stupid?
I would, as I think most would. And I see it as a very similar senario, for the same reasons.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[billvon 2,471]

>Would you NOT imediately dissmiss the viewpoint of a Neo Nazi as stupid?

Do you agree with the following:

"Modern leftist philosophers tend to dismiss reason, science, objective reality and to insist that everything is culturally relative. It is true that one can ask serious questions about the foundations of scientific knowledge and about how, if at all, the concept of objective reality can be defined. But it is obvious that modern leftist philosophers are not simply cool-headed logicians systematically analyzing the foundations of knowledge. They are deeply involved emotionally in their attack on truth and reality. They attack these concepts because of their own psychological needs. For one thing, their attack is an outlet for hostility, and, to the extent that it is successful, it satisfies the drive for power. More importantly, the leftist hates science and rationality because they classify certain beliefs as true (i.e., successful, superior) and other beliefs as false (i.e. failed, inferior). The leftist's feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests. Leftists are antagonistic to genetic explanations of human abilities or behavior because such explanations tend to make some persons appear superior or inferior to others. Leftists prefer to give society the credit or blame for an individual's ability or lack of it. Thus if a person is "inferior" it is not his fault, but society's, because he has not been brought up properly."

How about:

"Human beings have a need (probably based in biology) for something that we will call the "power process." This is closely related to the need for power (which is widely recognized) but is not quite the same thing. The power process has four elements. The three most clear-cut of these we call goal, effort and attainment of goal. (Everyone needs to have goals whose attainment requires effort, and needs to succeed in attaining at least some of his goals.) The fourth element is more difficult to define and may not be necessary for everyone. We call it autonomy and will discuss it later.

Consider the hypothetical case of a man who can have anything he wants just by wishing for it. Such a man has power, but he will develop serious psychological problems. At first he will have a lot of fun, but by and by he will become acutely bored and demoralized. Eventually he may become clinically depressed. History shows that leisured aristocracies tend to become decadent. This is not true of fighting aristocracies that have to struggle to maintain their power. But leisured, secure aristocracies that have no need to exert themselves usually become bored, hedonistic and demoralized, even though they have power. This shows that power is not enough. One must have goals toward which to exercise one's power."

[Steel 0]

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>Would you NOT imediately dissmiss the viewpoint of a Neo Nazi as stupid?

Do you agree with the following:

"Modern leftist philosophers tend to dismiss reason, science, objective reality and to insist that everything is culturally relative. It is true that one can ask serious questions about the foundations of scientific knowledge and about how, if at all, the concept of objective reality can be defined. But it is obvious that modern leftist philosophers are not simply cool-headed logicians systematically analyzing the foundations of knowledge. They are deeply involved emotionally in their attack on truth and reality. They attack these concepts because of their own psychological needs. For one thing, their attack is an outlet for hostility, and, to the extent that it is successful, it satisfies the drive for power.
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So far, I have not read anything that I will imediately dissmiss.

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More importantly, the leftist hates science and rationality because they classify certain beliefs as true (i.e., successful, superior) and other beliefs as false (i.e. failed, inferior).
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This is shaky ground. I say this because I know lefties who are all about science. However, sometimes they get caught up on false science and refuse to look at it objectively, kind of like global warming.

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The leftist's feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests. Leftists are antagonistic to genetic explanations of human abilities or behavior because such explanations tend to make some persons appear superior or inferior to others. Leftists prefer to give society the credit or blame for an individual's ability or lack of it. Thus if a person is "inferior" it is not his fault, but society's, because he has not been brought up properly."
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Some of this is often true, a lot of it is too generalized.
================================
How about:

"Human beings have a need (probably based in biology) for something that we will call the "power process." This is closely related to the need for power (which is widely recognized) but is not quite the same thing. The power process has four elements. The three most clear-cut of these we call goal, effort and attainment of goal. (Everyone needs to have goals whose attainment requires effort, and needs to succeed in attaining at least some of his goals.) The fourth element is more difficult to define and may not be necessary for everyone. We call it autonomy and will discuss it later.

Consider the hypothetical case of a man who can have anything he wants just by wishing for it. Such a man has power, but he will develop serious psychological problems. At first he will have a lot of fun, but by and by he will become acutely bored and demoralized. Eventually he may become clinically depressed. History shows that leisured aristocracies tend to become decadent. This is not true of fighting aristocracies that have to struggle to maintain their power. But leisured, secure aristocracies that have no need to exert themselves usually become bored, hedonistic and demoralized, even though they have power. This shows that power is not enough. One must have goals toward which to exercise one's power."

I am not sure if I buy that Absolute power ALWAYS absolutely corrupts. Never-the-less Castro and Che were ruthless from the get go, long before they had power. It took 20 months after gaining controle for Castro to declare himself a Marxist-Lennist. But it didn't take 20 months for the firing squads to get started. And before the Revolution started, at the Sierra Maestra Che killed 14 personally with his own gun.
1. ARISTIDIO 2. MANUEL CAPITÁN 3. JUAN CHANG 4. “BISCO” ECHEVARRÍA 5. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER
6. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER 7. EUTIMIO GUERRA 8. DIONISIO LEBRIGIO 9. JUAN LEBRIGIO 10. “EL NEGRO” NÁPOLES 11. “CHICHO” OSORIO 12. ONE UNIDENTIFIED TEACHER (“EL MAESTRO) 13.-14. 2 UNIDENTIFIED PEASANTS


I must say, I didn't see the connection with the first one and what I was stating and I took my best guess as to what you meant by the second one and answered accordingly.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[billvon 2,471]

>I didn't see the connection with the first one and what I was stating . . .


Initially you asked:

"Would you NOT imediately dissmiss the viewpoint of a Neo Nazi as stupid?"

You then proceeded to rationally discuss the Unabomber's Manifesto. You referred to parts of it as "often true."

So to answer your original question - I think that if a neo-nazi came up with a possible cure for AIDS, it would be quite worthy of discussion. Likewise, if he had a solution for the problems in Cuba, it might be worth listening to - just as you saw some valid points in what the Unabomber said. Doesn't mean I would agree with his politics though.

[SkyDekker 1,152]

priceless

[GTAVercetti 0]

bill, you made me wait way too long for the punchline.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Steel 0]

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>I didn't see the connection with the first one and what I was stating . . .


Initially you asked:

"Would you NOT imediately dissmiss the viewpoint of a Neo Nazi as stupid?"

You then proceeded to rationally discuss the Unabomber's Manifesto. You referred to parts of it as "often true."

So to answer your original question - I think that if a neo-nazi came up with a possible cure for AIDS, it would be quite worthy of discussion. Likewise, if he had a solution for the problems in Cuba, it might be worth listening to - just as you saw some valid points in what the Unabomber said. Doesn't mean I would agree with his politics though.

The difference ofcourse is that I didn't know who writing I was reading. You posted it anonymously. Perhaps if the writing included a desire to mail people bombs, then I would have known, I was reading psycho-babble and I probably would have stopped reading there.
I think that regardless of who you are talking about, you can probably find something that you agree on. But some people have committed such attrocities that any defense of them, I consider useless and not worth reading.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[SkyDekker 1,152]

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The difference ofcourse is that I didn't know who writing I was reading. You posted it anonymously. Perhaps if the writing included a desire to mail people bombs, then I would have known, I was reading psycho-babble and I probably would have stopped reading there.

Obviously it wasn't psycho-babble since you agreed with a big portion of it. Unless off course you make a habit of believing a psycho-babble?

It does show that even though you may not agree with a persons actions, sometimes it is worth while to listen to them. If Castro develops a vaccine against every form of cancer, should we just dismiss it because of his previous actions?

[Steel 0]

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The difference ofcourse is that I didn't know who writing I was reading. You posted it anonymously. Perhaps if the writing included a desire to mail people bombs, then I would have known, I was reading psycho-babble and I probably would have stopped reading there.

Obviously it wasn't psycho-babble since you agreed with a big portion of it. Unless off course you make a habit of believing a psycho-babble?

It does show that even though you may not agree with a persons actions, sometimes it is worth while to listen to them. If Castro develops a vaccine against every form of cancer, should we just dismiss it because of his previous actions?

If a person is a psycho and he is babbling, I refer to it as psycho babble.
Once I establish that somebody is a horrible person, I imediately think less of people who defend him or her.
Now if somebody said to me, Hitler discovered X about medcine in a concentration camp, that may be able to help up understand y. Then I would say fine study X. On the other hand if somebody said, "You know Hitler wasn't hated by everybody. A lot of Germans were happy to have him as a leader and btw., he discovered X which helps with Y". This person I would take for a Nazi sympathizer, and from that point I would take his opinions as worthless.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.