Be afraid of reincarnation!

[pajarito 0]

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You even got your own understanding of a democracy. I live in Switzerland, and I can tell you, you'v no idea how a democracy even looks like.

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This sounds like an inferiority complex.

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[jduebi 0]

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This sounds like an inferiority complex.

Of course it's hard to determine somehting like this for your self, but I think that's not the problem.

It's just that I often get upset about the USA. Your country just looks much different if you see the things trought our media.

[tcnelson 1]

that's right dr.octagon! shame on you! now, quit being so damned naive and evil! ...and buy more ricola to help the swiss retain their sweet, sweet democracy.

and for god's sake man...don't post any more "news" from cnn here. we all know that they are controlled by the govt. in conjunction with the zarknods of the draknoid system! those of you who believe that cnn is a business out to make money are simply naive!

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[skydyvr 0]

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most of them just have no idea of whats going on because of their manipulated media

You are right again!

Here in the US, we have no access to the Internet or other International news media that would explain what's really going on around the world. They filter out all that stuff at the borders.

But somehow, our government fails to filter out DZ com, so I get all my news here.

. . =(_8^(1)

[steveorino 7]

I have a Master's in Theology and one thing I'm sure of. I don't know all that God knows. Yes, I believe He wants to make Himself known, but we as humans are limited in conceptulizing Him.

As far as your question about catholics/protestants and other questions like ... what about people before the law, people between the Testaments, people who never had the opportunity to hear the good news because they were born here, there, then, etc. This I believe. God is loving and just. He will be fair to all people. How he does that is up to Him. But as for me, I have no excuse. I have heard the good news. Thankfully, I have responded to His offer of grace.

steveOrino

[MrBounce 0]

Ummm, just my take - and i'm a laspsed catholic, so its probably worthless (and I'm now doomed to an eternity in hell), but...

1) The threat of the punishment is designed to keep the believers on the straight and narrow.

2) Them's the breaks, which sucks.
But, in all cases, the sinner has to completely, utterly and truthfully repent, which is unlikely in the cases that you highlighted.

According to the church, suicide is a mortal sin, if Jesus could stand the pain of being crucified on the, then you should be able to stand the pain of whatever is happening in your life up and until God decides its your time to die.

"Can Ah have a Halleuiah, Praise tha Lord!"

Now, my familiarity with the bible is terrible, so I'd love anyone who can point out the relevant passages in the bible that state that suicide is a sin, as opposed to simply church doctrine that says so.

Gavin

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. If you don't take it out and use it, its going to rust.

[billvon 2,435]

>I don't know all that God knows. Yes, I believe He wants to make
>Himself known, but we as humans are limited in conceptulizing Him.

I think that's a very valid (and wise) way to approach the issue. I've always agreed with CS Lewis on this:

The one whom I bow to only knows to whom I bow
When I attempt the ineffable Name, murmuring Thou
And dream of Phaedian fancies and embrace in heart
Symbols (I know) which cannot be the thing thou art.
Thus always, taken at their word, all prayers blaspheme
Worshipping with frail images of folk-lore dream,
And all in their praying, self-deceived, address
The coinage of their own unquiet thoughts, unless
Thou in magnetic mercy to Thyself divert
Our arrows, aimed, unskillfully, beyond desert;
and all are idolators, crying unheard
To a deaf idol, if thou take them at they word.
Take not, O Lord, our literal sense. Lord, in thy great,
Unspoken speech our limping metaphor translate.

- C. S. Lewis, "A Footnote to All Prayers"

[pajarito 0]

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Many religions claim that their specific religion is the only true path and that all others will lead a person to hell. This even goes on within christian based religions. Some christians have said that catholics will burn in hell, some catholics have said that protestants will burn in hell. What is your take on this?

Catholicism is Christian. However, whatever your denomination, anyone who sins and falls short of the glory of God (e.g. Breaks any one of the 10 Commandments; God’s moral law) without the saving grace of Jesus will have their place in hell.

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If lets say for the sake of argument that christians are right and catholics are wrong. If someone has spent thier entire life being faithfull to their beliefs and worshipping God in the manner that they beleive is the best while submitting to his word as they understand it, will he burn them for an eternity because they had the misfortune of being brought up in the wrong religion? It seems scary because every religion say's that and they all have scriptures in their bible to support their claim. Can someone who in their heart is faithfull to god be eternaly punished for a misenterpretation?

Jesus claimed to be the only way to God. He also claimed to be God in the flesh. His divinity was proven through prophesy, miracles, his forgiving of sins, defeating death, etc. Leaders of the other major religions do not make this claim and deny the claims of Jesus. Christianity is unique and in direct opposition to every other religion. In light of this, it is not logical to claim that all paths lead to God. If I decided to worship my dog as my god and submitted to his barks as I understand them and you decided to worship your high school football trophy sitting on your dresser because it glows in the moonlight and you think it’s a god, both of us could be wrong but we both cannot be right. It would be wise to consider the claims of Jesus carefully. He was either a liar, a lunatic (neither of which has basis), or he is who he claimed to be.

[kallend 1,651]

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His divinity was proven through prophesy, miracles, his forgiving of sins, defeating death, etc. .

I've done all those things. Maybe I'm divine too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pajarito 0]

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His divinity was proven through prophesy, miracles, his forgiving of sins, defeating death, etc. .

I've done all those things. Maybe I'm divine too.

Good luck with that.

[Richards 0]

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Christianity is unique and in direct opposition to every other religion. In light of this, it is not logical to claim that all paths lead to God.

That statement implies serious consequences for Jewish people and Muslims. Am I interpreting that correctly? Does Christianity propose that members of those two religions will burn for having followed those two religions. I am not trying to be provocational with that question; Its just that I am somewhat intrigued by this conversation and am curious about the hard questions.

Thanks,

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[pajarito 0]

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That statement implies serious consequences for Jewish people and Muslims. Am I interpreting that correctly? Does Christianity propose that members of those two religions will burn for having followed those two religions. I am not trying to be provocational with that question; Its just that I am somewhat intrigued by this conversation and am curious about the hard questions.

Take religion and/or denomination out of the equation. Anyone who breaks God's moral law is building up wrath for the day of judgement. God is very patient but, if you die without his saving grace through faith in Jesus, you will go to hell. Doesn't matter if you're Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Spagetti Monster, or Christian. One must be "born again" of the spirit. If anyone here takes the test in my link, he/she will find themselves falling short. It's something very serious to consider.

[DrOctagon 0]

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that's right dr.octagon! shame on you! now, quit being so damned naive and evil! ...and buy more ricola to help the swiss retain their sweet, sweet democracy.

and for god's sake man...don't post any more "news" from cnn here. we all know that they are controlled by the govt. in conjunction with the zarknods of the draknoid system! those of you who believe that cnn is a business out to make money are simply naive!

I'm sitting here trying to simultaneously comprehend the infinite mysteries of the almighty, corrupt democracies, and disease ridden monkey butt rape, all while enjoying a hot cup of Swiss Miss...to support the true cause...mmmm.
...What a tangled web we've woven

[tbrown 26]

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I think it’s a fair trade of.

Absolutely! I think it's great!

You better believe it's a fair trade off, especially if you have any ideas about living through the Avian Flu pandemic once it gets started. We'll have to kill all kinds of test animals before we get to a vaccine that can be of any help. Check out the National Geographic cover story from a few months back, there are some pics of people with this Avian Flu in Vietnamese hospitals. This is one terrifying mother of a flu, and it's coming. I don't care how many little piggies have to die if it helps.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[rhys 0]

The whole heavan and hell thing is a crock of shit. It was a story made up for naive people that were desparate for a meaning of life.

It is used as a marketing campaign to get a small few rich in wealth.

If god was such a good cunt then he would have given the understanding to all. there are plenty of civilisations that did not even know about christianty until last century. how is this fair. it's not it is all a crock of shit and you are gullible if you believe it. open your eyes look to the cosmos and you will find we are a mere stitch in time and a virus choking our host.

The planet earth and its star the sun deserves the respect that many give to this ficticious god.

i suppose i'm going to hell for respecting our planet over God? but the fat vicar that drives his bmw and scores all the cash from his victims is going to heaven?

My ass.

and by the way,

Vivesection is creul. these sort of things should be tested on humans that have inflicted pain on others way beyond reasonable doubt. as punishment rather than couping them up in a prison.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[pajarito 0]

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i suppose i'm going to hell for respecting our planet over God?

In the beginning.....God.

Or,

In the beginning.....Dirt.

Hmmmm..........

[rhys 0]

dude that is the weakest analogy ever.... so what was first god or nothing? duh

for fuck sake pull you head in.

so god was sitting there for eternity hovering in a mass of nothing before he got bored and dicided to create everything?

what created god? we will never know exactly what existed before the universe. this god malarchy is made up for people that cannot handle not having an answer. the story is old and outdated. only the stubbon hold on to it.

oh and the ones that realise it is all a lie but they get lots of money and litle boys for being at the top of the heirachy.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[niolosoiale 0]

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Since after you die you will no longer be able to experience physical pain (ie heat & flames etc) the torment is actually Separation From God. .

The whole point of nearly every religion has been unification with their perceived god. Even the occultist whackjob religions. Salvation as it pertains to christianity is no different. "Believe Jesus died to forgive your sins and you get to go to Heaven." That's fine but I always have had trouble seeing it as any different from the other methodologies.

But here's my system of belief as it pertains to god and salvation.

Existence is everything that exists. Existence is infinite. Since existence is infinite, there is nothing that is outside of existence. Not even a void. As such, existence can never cease. If were to collapse or explode, it would take an infinite amount of time, and would only relatively change the structure of existence (which is nothing special as it happens every moment) Everything in existence is of the same energy. Energy and force (or will if you want to call it that) make up everything. There is nothing inherently different about the energy that makes up two "seperate" objects other than that they are merely organized in a different part of space and time. So you are by this existential structure, not actually seperate from anything else. Everything that exists is part of the same existence and is thus the same entity. Again, there is no actual seperation, only structural organization and relative position in space.

Ok that's the horse pill. Here's the supplement.

If (BIG if) one views existence as "god", then one can logically see that you are not seperated from "god". It seems logical to me for what many people have looked to as god, is actually the identity of existence. Since existence is infinite, and it is made up of energy and force (will), there is nothing that can be outside of existence. As such there is nothing that can exist outside of "god's" "will" or "existence's" "force". As a christian I was raised with the notion that everything works according to "god's will" and that that will was all-powerful. So it's a small slide in vocabulary to refer to god as existence, but it's a huge slide in context. However, there is a common denominator and that is the perceived seperation from god. The way we see our world and ourselves, there appears to be a defined line of seperation between ourselves and other objects. I am me, you are you, this desk is a desk, there's a computer over here, walls over there... and we see these things as not being the same because they are arranged in a way and relative position that would indicate that these things are outside of ourselves. It's important that they are seen this way because that is how we have our sense of self-identity. Our brains require that sort of perception. The world as we know it requires that. But the perception is rarely the actuality. The truth (note jesus said the truth will set you free) is that there is no seperation. You are part of existence/god and you cannot physically seperate your body and soul (mind/emotions/will) from it. You can perceive yourself as seperate and most people do and are raised to believe that (this is the gateway to forced salvation and obligation to religious institutions which serve themselves before others) and by all accounts, it would appear that you are.

If you and the desk were the same thing, would that not mean you could just fuse your hand with the desk? Well you could, if you didnt exist in a dimension where the rules said you can't. If there is energy and force, to make any sense of it, there must be order. Otherwise you just have a bunch of unstructured chaos which while infinite, could never really accomplish much of anything. Thus you have dimensions of existence. In the dimension where our universe resides, there are physical rules. Physics if you will. These rules bring order to all the energy contained within the universe and help it operate in a meaningful way. Gravity, heat, sound, light, time, magnetism, etc., are all things that structuralize the energy which we exist in. They help make sense of the energy. These rules/physics, are for the most part, unchangeable while in their context. You can observe/create variations in their performance, but you cannot destroy them truly. You are under the rules, thus you can only bend, not break them. You can shove your fist through some glass, and some glass can be embedded in your fist, but there won't be any true fusion of the energy that makes up your fist or the glass. But even then, you aren't seperate from the glass in the context of existence. You aren't made up of the same portions of energy necessarily, but you are the same energy. There is only one energy. Variation in that energy comes from force or will. Force organizes the energy and manipulates it, but it cannot destroy or create energy.

Well that's fine and dandy, but wtf am I really saying? What I'm saying is that the belief systems that exist, all exist together and often share common goals. Christianity's goal is to allow you a way to be with god in heaven. It puts this huge responsibility on yourself to "have faith" that what you are being told in the bible is the undeniable truth about how things are. And faith (taking something for truth even though you have no undeniable [emphasis on the undeniable] proof for it's validity) does not really work very well with our brains. You can be a christian and have faith in god, but I know for a fact that there are times past and coming, where as a christian, one will struggle with their faith. Their mind will be reminding them that it's missing the parity bit. It's missing the one thing which it needs to give the "undeniable" part to the "truth". And that little bit, is experience. To date, I do not believe anyone has physically experienced god as the christians believe in. This would involve either seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling, or hearing god. And it would have to occur in such a way that no man could argue that it was not god. When the argument is negated by undeniable proof (which there has been none as there are still people who do not believe), then god has been experienced.

And let me hush any counter arguments that any christians reading this have experienced god. If you had proof, you wouldn't have faith. You would have absolute knowledge. And I was raised with the firm belief that one must have faith in god to go to heaven. That is the single reason god doesn't "prove" himself to people. God as you believe in him wants you to have faith. Faith is the sign of love. If you knew with 100% certainty, you wouldn't have to love because you would just know. You could still love, but you wouldn't have to. You would believe as a matter of undeniable fact, not faith. And any experience you've had that you credit to god, sure it may be god's doing, but it didn't prove god. You can say it proved god for you, but that's not totally true because you didn't see, smell, taste, feel, hear him. Don't let me upset you with that though. It's just how things are. It upset be when I started believing it, but now it makes sense and it's a source of stability.

In short (haha) religions help you find unification with god or whatever you believe you are striving towards. They aren't inherently harmful, they just spawn confrontation between people that believe that they are right and no one else is. Believe what you will, but don't expect anyone else to buy into it. Your life and your experiences have forged your beliefs, and everyone is unique. But personally, I think most people are endless earching for something that's already there. Of course, they search because the journey is what matters, not the destination.

Skydiving. You don't jump out of a plane to get to the ground, you jump for the experience of space in between. You'll make it to the ground regardless.

So don't stop searching for your unification, or salvation, or whatever, just make sure you don't forget the trip.

Whew.

[pajarito 0]

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If god was such a good cunt then he would have given the understanding to all.

3rd Commandment: You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain.
Exodus 20:7

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The planet earth and its star the sun deserves the respect that many give to this ficticious god.

1st Commandment: I am the Lord your God, which have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:2-3

and

2nd Commandment: You shall not make for yourself any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (Idolatry)
Exodus 20:4

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- but the fat vicar that drives his bmw and scores all the cash from his victims is going to heaven? (derogatory term used to hurt another)
- oh and the ones that realise it is all a lie but they get lots of money and litle boys for being at the top of the heirachy. (broad generalization in an attempt to discredit all)
- for fuck sake pull you head in. (implying that I’m somehow less intelligent than you and other atheists because I’m religious)

6th Commandment: You shall not kill.
Exodus 20:13

Jesus warned “Whoever is angry with his brother without cause, is in danger of judgement,” (Matthew 5:22) and the Bible says, “He who hates his brother is a murderer,” (1 John 3:15). God sees hatred in the heart to be as wicked as murder. We can violate his law by attitude and intent.


Where will you be going when you die and does it concern you?

[pajarito 0]

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If god was such a good "----" then he would have given the understanding to all.

But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glories, let him glory in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:27-31

God has chosen foolish, base, weak, and despised things of the world to confound those who think they are wise.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 1:7

[rhys 0]

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Where will you be going when you die and does it concern you?

Live life for life not for death, what happens when you die? you will never know until it happens.

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If god was such a good cunt then he would have given the understanding to all.
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3rd Commandment: You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain.
Exodus 20:7
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seeing you are so easil offended i'll rephaise the message.

If god was such a good fellow then he would have given the understanding to all. meaning what about the aborigonals and maori and pigmes and zulus and any other group of people that lived well before the missionaries could convey the message of god? did they all burn in hell because they were unaware of gods existance?

It is all a lie, a story to keep you feeding the coins into the bag or 20% of your income dependind on your faith.

you cant fool me with all the mumbo jumbo 88:12 blah blah.

i have eyes and a mind that are open. i live amoungst nature and i have all respect for that nature, the sun and earth are my gods and your sexist racist, unfair, unkind wanker of a god is a crock of shit anyway!

I went to a christian school and they had 5 years to convince me,

they didn't in fact they proved themselves as rogues when they handed that money bag around at the end of the session!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[SpeedRacer 1]

oooo, who administered your rectal doses this morning?

Speed Racer
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[rhys 0]

bah, I just get tired of holier than thou christian fucks who try to lure unsespecting characters by threatening a milenia of pain and suffering if they don't abide by thier beliefs.

a crock of shit, for morons.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[SpeedRacer 1]

Noone's pointing a gun at your head forcing you to believe anything.

The atheists say what they believe & the Christians say what they believe.


If anything (on this forum anyway) it seems as though the atheist-thumpers are more angry & militant than the Bible-thumpers.

There seem to be a lot more atheists angrily slamming Christians than vice versa.

But anyway, if you think Christianity is all bullshit then you shouldnt be worried by what Christians say at all.

Speed Racer
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[jenfly00 0]

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Cruel and horrible that we would use innocent animals like that when we could just as easily use convicts (just the really bad ones like sex offenders and serial killers etc).

Richards

I had an opportunity to work at the animal research center for the Shriners Burns Institute in Galveston one summer. They experimented with synthetic skin on burnt animals. Basically they took pigs, gave them burns, applied synthetic skin, and tested if it would take. While it seemed cruel (animals were put under anesthesia during the burning process), I also had an opportunity to meet children, some of who’s bodies were covered 95% in 3rd degree burns, as well as their parents. I saw 10 year old boys burnt so bad that they had no genitals left. It was these kids that were being helped through the testing done on the pigs and sheep. I think it’s a fair trade of.

Great work! I have zero problem with such research.

Torturing animals so that shallow women can paint their faces, however ...

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".