It's the government, it doesn't have to make sense.

[kallend 1,635]

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So how has this deterioriated into you pulling things like DME arc approaches and ATP ratings out of your ass? We're not talking about IMC flying, we're talking about avoiding a freakin TFR.

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BTW you still have not told us the likely position error (in nm)

Both VORs used for triangluation off by 4 deg (in opposite directions to give worst case scenario) puts you b/w 5 and 6 mi off.

So, in a 1 in 1,000,000 chance that this happens (both off 4 deg in opposite directions), you'll only be 5-6 nm off. Gee, give the TFR a 6 mi buffer if you really want to fly close and don't have access to a GPS, thus being forced to use VOR trinagulation.

P.S. It took me 6-9 sec to figure all of that out and just to check, the monkey in my closet concurs.

Thanks for proving my point. Thank the monkey too. The "supposed" 30 mile TFR is, for all practical purposes, a 36 mile TFR.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ViperPilot 0]

It's only 36 nm if you choose to stay on the side of caution and you don't have a GPS/don't trust your VORs (which you can test with a VOT, so you're fault if you don't do that before flight). And like Hook (i think) said, how much bigger would the TFR be if centered on one of those VORs? Too lazy to do it, but just from looking it's gonna be WAY bigger than 36 nm radius.

You either hate Bush and the govt so much that you try to make any stupid argument you can, or you're an incredibly terrible pilot (or both)...case closed.

[kallend 1,635]

Eh? Who said BUSH had anything to do with designing a TFR protocol?

SO, do you happen to keep a VOT in your tee hangar?

Do you know if being correct on the VOT guarantees correct readings on all azimuths?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I cannot believe you are still trying to convince anyone that will listen that the TFR was poorly implemented.

You claim to have answered my questions, but haven't. Cut and paste the answers if you have answered my questions. You twist peoples words. For example, Viper said it would take him 6-9 seconds to triangulate his position, not determine the error of that fix. You really do hear only what you want to hear.

You don’t want the TFR bigger, but that is exactly what centering it on a nav-aid will do to it, which is what you do want. You can’t have it both ways. Make up your mind, do you want it centered on a nav-aid and bigger, or where it is(was) and the same size?

For the very last time, you do not need any instruments beyond what is required to fly VFR to avoid a TFR. As a VFR pilot, you look at the ground and use any instruments to back that up to keep track of your position. I can fly a 182 w/ VFR instruments all day long without flying into any TFR's. I could do this by putting the TFR on my sectional and keeping track of my position using that sectional and looking at the ground. I would use whatever instruments available to back that up. It wouldn't be an increase in workload since I would be doing that anyway. I couldn't give a damn if my hand-drawn circle or downloaded and printed map was certified because it will work just fine to keep me out of the TFR. What difference does it make? None. I still do not see what you are crying about. You don't need DME to fly VFR or to avoid a TFR. You don't need VOR's to fly VFR or avoid a TFR. You are making a mountain out of an ant hill and are looking very silly doing it.

If you need instruments to avoid a TFR, then hire a CFI to teach you how to navigate properly. If you cannot avoid a TFR with ease, do competent pilots a favor and don't fly because you'll just make them look bad.

Derek

[kallend 1,635]

Here's some good listening:



Of course, you and Kevin would have done a much better job than the 6000 hour CFI.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lurch 0]

It's a priviledge to fly, not a right.


With all due respect, THAT is so much bullshit.
That attitude, slowly penetrating into almost every activity you can think of, is why the idea that this is a free country has become a bad joke. I've grown rather tired of hearing this or that is a privilege not a right and I only get to do it by another man's leave.
Travelling freely about the landscape is NOT a privilege. Ask any animal.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[ViperPilot 0]

First of all, we were talking about a TFR in AZ, not the ADIZ. Secondly I didn't catch it, we're these guys on a VFR or IFR flightplan? The controller said to remain VFR at one point, so I assume VFR. If so, then that's their problem for flying VFR into an area like that. How bout trying to fly VFR into Ohare, or into Vegas, or into DFW. Point is, w/o being on an IFR flightplan, it's going to be a MAJOR MAJOR pain in the ass for both pilot and controllers when doing something such as flying VFR into complicated/crowded areas. Controllers don't want to deal w/ VFR traffic in high stress areas, so I don't necessarily blame them for putting VFR aircraft on wild rides to avoid certain areas. How does this flight have anything to do w/ the TFRs in AZ? Yeah the ADIZ complicates things, not arguing that, but by going in there in the first place, and VFR, the pilot just gave himself and the controllers a big pain in the ass.

Secondly, he flew just fine by 1) Communicating 2) Following directions 3) Using some situational awareness and common sense. If someone doesn't have all 3 when flying, why the hell are they flying? I don't care if you have 690000 hours or 69 hours...everyone should have those 3 and know not to fly anywhere that they couldn't keep up w/ those 3.

[ViperPilot 0]

So it's a bad idea to make people get a driver license, pilot's license, diving license, USPA license, etc? Guess everyone has the right to do all of those w/o any training whatsoever? Guess setting rules and regulations is a bad idea? Wonder how long all the idiots in this world would last if we enacted the lurch transportation system? Shit, unlicensed 12 yr olds flying, sending 14 yr old kids in the vette to the store to get milk...hell, we don't need licenses or regs, lets just let everyone do whatever the hell they want...that system would be so safe and beneficial to us all!

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[kallend 1,635]

As usual you completely miss the point.
It's not just TFRs (although the one coming next week over DC is a doozie), it's the whole methodology of sanitizing airspace in the name of "security" without a thought of its practical impact.

Apparently, over 20,000 pilots agree with me. Very few seem to support your position. www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2006/060118adiz.html

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[caress 0]

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It's a priviledge to fly, not a right.


With all due respect, THAT is so much bullshit.
That attitude, slowly penetrating into almost every activity you can think of, is why the idea that this is a free country has become a bad joke. I've grown rather tired of hearing this or that is a privilege not a right and I only get to do it by another man's leave.
Travelling freely about the landscape is NOT a privilege. Ask any animal.

AMEN!

I've learned.... That being kind is more important than being
right.

• Quote

[ViperPilot 0]

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without a thought of its practical impact.

Well Mr. CFI wasn't being very practical by flying VFR into the ADIZ and around the Baltimore area, so why should the controllers be practical? It's a tradeoff...flying VFR into something like that is gonna be a pain in the ass, deal w/ it or don't fly.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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That's what happens when the President comes to town. It's a priviledge to fly, not a right.

As usual, you miss the point completely.

It's about making rules that cannot be complied with.

Rules that govern what I'm sure you would agree is an activity that is not a "right" -- just like people say that driving is a "privilege," not a "right."

I myself have always disagreed with that. Driving IS, to a large degree, a right -- which can be taken away if you transgress badly enough. But to claim that ordinary modern life, for a vast vast percentage of the population, does not involve being able to get from one place to another by automobile is ignorant.

Likewise, once a person is trained and capable of flying an aircraft, it should be considered that person's RIGHT. And only a very compelling government need should be able to trump that right.

On that count, I agree. It's bullshit to throw up instant TFRs around the country. It's almost as if they are hoping to catch pilots violating them.

Now you might have a glimpse into what life is like for gun owners trying to maneuver through the bullshit cynical maze of gun regulations both state and federal.

It's easy for good people in both situations to get ensnared when they truly weren't doing anything criminal in the philosophical (not strictly legal) sense.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[kallend 1,635]

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without a thought of its practical impact.

Well Mr. CFI wasn't being very practical by flying VFR into the ADIZ and around the Baltimore area, so why should the controllers be practical? It's a tradeoff...flying VFR into something like that is gonna be a pain in the ass, deal w/ it or don't fly.

You must work for the government.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.