What is the US equivalent?

[livendive 8]

Right now I'm thinking of the Sunni-Shiite-Kurdish thing in Iraq, but that isn't even close to the only country that is divided into separate factions. I'd really like to get a better understanding of what the differences are between these groups, so I'm trying to think of an American equivalent (assuming such groups exists).

Is it like democrats versus republicans? Protestant versus lutheran? City slickers versus rednecks? Polish immigrants versus Mexican immigrants? Is the disparity political, religous, ethnic, cultural, or all of the above?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[miked10270 0]

An American equivalent may be difficult to give. Northern Ireland's extremist prodestant & republican elements may serve....

Nope! Gottit!:

Fill a stadium with equal parts of "PRO-CHOICE" & PRO-LIFE activists & protestors. Change the concessions to sell Booze, Semtex & Kalashnikovs... Arrange for "A Termination" to commence on the pitch and stand well back. Observe results via Ex-Soviet-Spy-Satellite.

Now you've got it.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Gawain 0]

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Is the disparity political, religous, ethnic, cultural, or all of the above?

All of the above.

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Right now I'm thinking of the Sunni-Shiite-Kurdish thing in Iraq, but that isn't even close to the only country that is divided into separate factions. I'd really like to get a better understanding of what the differences are between these groups, so I'm trying to think of an American equivalent (assuming such groups exists).

Let me give you some background about these different groups and you can decide.

Iraq's history has several segments to it. In terms of "Cultural History", here's the quick and dirty timeline:

---18th Century BC to 6th Century BC: Babylonian Empire, cradle of civilization
---1534 to 1916: The Ottoman Empire. Iraq consisted of three semi independent provinces, Mosul in the north, Baghdad in central/western and Basra in the south. The Ottoman Empire supported Sunni governance to counter Shia influence from Iran. Persia sponsored Shia missionaries during the 1800s and the majority of the population converted from Sunni to Shia (I'll get into these in a minute).
---1920 to 1958: The British Mandate and Monarch. The British forged modern Iraq in 1921 under an appointed Sunni King. The Kurds became a stateless ethnic group split among Turkey, Iraq and Iran. British and Sunni forces repressed a Shia and Kurdish revolt. In 1958, a coup brough independence and republican rule.
---1958 to present: The republic was unstable until Ba'ath Party take-over in 1968 (Saddam Hussein) and the Sunnis rule the roost. The Kurds and Shia are repressed and during the Iran/Iraq war in the 1980s they suffered brutal attacks at the hands of Hussein.

Here's the deal on the Cultural Groups:

Arabs:
-View Kurds as separatists and are wary of their desire for autonomy.
-View Christian Assyrians and Chaldeans as Iraqis, but the Islamic extremism has sparked some hostility.
-Look down on the Turkoman.
-View Iran/Persia negatively due to historically strong political and cultural influence.

Shia and Sunni Arabs: (18.5 million)
-The tension between the two covers political, economic power.
-Sunnis blame Shia for undermining the mythical unity of Islam, thus questioning their loyalty overall.
-Shia blame Sunnis for marginalizing the Shia majority

Kurds: (5 million)
-Openly hostile toward Iraqi Arabs
-Distrustful of Turkoman
-Do not interact with Assyrians and Chaldeans

Assyrians: (800,000, w/Chaldeans)
-Persecuted by Kurds and Arabs
-Recognize their minority standing
-Believe in their commonality with the Chaldeans in terms of ethnic and Christian religious heritage

Chaldeans:
-Rejoined the Catholic Church in the 1800s and do not believe they are similar to the Assyrians
-Distrust Kurdish and Arab intentions
-Peaceful with Turkoman

Turkoman: (500,000)
-View themselves as a repressed minority
-Fear the Kurds, history of conflict
-Identify closely with Turkey and the Ottoman period of history

A real mixed soup huh? A European version could be construed as the Balkans Region. For the US, I'd have to say I can't think of a single movement that embodies the whole spectrum. The Civil Rights movement comes close, but it was never advocating its own "state". The Israeli/Palestinian story shares some commonality with these different groups.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 1,635]

Cubs vs White Sox

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[FallRate 0]

Tastes Great vs. Less Filling

Only by the Grace of God did our Union withstand that tumultuous period!

FallRate

[christelsabine 1]

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Tastes Great vs. Less Filling

Only by the Grace of God did our Union withstand that tumultuous period!

FallRate

Could someone kindly explain that anwer and Kallend's post before to an alien? Sounds like soccer teams to me.
Tried my best to understand but, .....
Thx in advance.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kallend 1,635]

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Tastes Great vs. Less Filling

Only by the Grace of God did our Union withstand that tumultuous period!

FallRate

Could someone kindly explain that anwer and Kallend's post before to an alien? Sounds like soccer teams to me.
Tried my best to understand but, .....
Thx in advance.

In soccer it would be Celtic vs Rangers (Glasgow).

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Shadowplay 0]

The issue has more to do with sunnis and shites. They are different sects of the Islamic religion. The Kurdish are a separate ethnic group altogether. I believe the Kurds are both Sunni and Shite in religion. The beef started in the 6?? century when Mohammed died. He didn't name a successor. The Shites believe that his nephew, Ali, was the rightful successor. I believe he lived in Mecca at the time. The Sunnis didn't think that was the case and thought some other guy (name escapes me but he lived in Damascus) was the real deal. That's what I've been able to gather. It's a real quick down and dirty of the beginning of the Muslim split.

I think it's most closely equated to the Lutheran split with the Catholics under Martin Luther. The Shites have a somewhat different belief system (Shites pray 5 times a day, Sunnis 3). They also believe they must publicly mutilate themselves for their sins. Think Yom Kippur on cocaine (not meant to be insulting, that's what a Persian teacher told me once). Maybe you could call it mormonism vs Christianity. Some Christians believe that Mormons are not a serious religion and most Sunnis seem to scoff at the Shites the same way.

I just recited all that so I could remember some of it in case we talk about it at Reserves tomorrow.

[Gawain 0]

Just a technical correction: Most Kurds are Sunni Muslim. Sufi orders are prevalent and influential. Sunni and Shia are branches of Islam. The Sunni call their leaders Imams, but to Shia, the Imam is a supreme religious leader descended from Mohammad.

Overall, your perception is correct, in terms of the nature of the split. When you throw the context of what this region, now Iraq, has to do with it, there are several more slices to the pie.

The self inflicted mutilation, as I have been informed, mostly occurs during the Hajj and during Ashura (?). Both of which will be going on about the time I get into Iraq I think.

There's probably more guides on AKO if you have access.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[FallRate 0]

Sorry...it looks like I'm 0-2 for the day.

FallRate

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Could someone kindly explain that anwer and Kallend's post before to an alien? Sounds like soccer teams to me.

The tastes great/less filling thing comes from an old, but long running, Miller Lite beer advertising campaign. All the commercials ended with people arguing or fighting over whether Miller Lite tastes great or is less filling. The reality, incidentally, is none of the above. Guiness tastes great, and rum is less filling.

The other one dates back to a time when Americans watched baseball!

For Great Deals on Gear

[Tink1717 2]

Catholic vs protestant most closely gets it.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[pajarito 0]

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Catholic vs protestant most closely gets it.

I agree.

[ReBirth 0]

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Catholic vs protestant most closely gets it.

I agree.

Not even close. I don't think many catholics or protestants want to kill each other in the US.

Probably the closest comparison for the US would be blacks vs. whites.

[christelsabine 1]

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Tastes Great vs. Less Filling

Only by the Grace of God did our Union withstand that tumultuous period!

FallRate

Could someone kindly explain that anwer and Kallend's post before to an alien? Sounds like soccer teams to me.
Tried my best to understand but, .....
Thx in advance.

In soccer it would be Celtic vs Rangers (Glasgow).

Oh well. And the Kurds might be Manchester United or Chelsea, then?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[pajarito 0]

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Not even close. I don't think many catholics or protestants want to kill each other in the US.

I'm not talking about violence or non-violence with respect to each. I'm talking about the basic facets in each as compared to the sunni/shia division. Correct me if I'm wrong (b/c I am not Catholic) but Catholics believe that we do not or cannot encounter Christ (God) directly, but in the Church, which is his body (e.g. the Church mediates the presence and action of Christ). Protestants (in general) believe that one does not need mediation and that each individual can experience Christ on his/her own. Again, correct me if I'm wrong (b/c I am also not Muslim). The Shia believes that their appointed leaders are sinless by nature and that their authority is infallible and comes directly from God. They appoint their version of sainthood and make pilgrimages to tombs in the hopes of divine intercession. The Sunni do not believe in an inherited privileged class of spiritual leaders and that there is no basis for the need of intercession. Again, this isn’t exact but I thought it was the closest comparison with respect to the original question in this thread.

Islam

[ReBirth 0]

Ahhh...got ya....I was addressing their state of conflict rather than their religious differences. I see where you're coming from.

[sinker 0]

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Correct me if I'm wrong (b/c I am not Catholic) but Catholics believe that we do not or cannot encounter Christ (God) directly, but in the Church, which is his body (e.g. the Church mediates the presence and action of Christ).

Partially correct... the Catholic Church does not deny that one can enounter Christ directly, personally, outside of the Church itself. It teaches that His Grace is still present. However, Christ cannot be experienced in the same way or to the same degree as He can in the sacraments of the church... perhaps that is what you were striving towards.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[pajarito 0]

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Partially correct... the Catholic Church does not deny that one can enounter Christ directly, personally, outside of the Church itself. It teaches that His Grace is still present. However, Christ cannot be experienced in the same way or to the same degree as He can in the sacraments of the church... perhaps that is what you were striving towards.

I was certainly striving for something. Didn't know exactly what it was, though. Thanks! I still think the Protestant/Catholic, Sunni/Shia comparison is the best we've got.

[sinker 0]

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Partially correct... the Catholic Church does not deny that one can enounter Christ directly, personally, outside of the Church itself. It teaches that His Grace is still present. However, Christ cannot be experienced in the same way or to the same degree as He can in the sacraments of the church... perhaps that is what you were striving towards.

I was certainly striving for something. Didn't know exactly what it was, though. Thanks! I still think the Protestant/Catholic, Sunni/Shia comparison is the best we've got.

yeah, I think you're right...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[artistcalledian 0]

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Catholic vs protestant most closely gets it.

I agree.

Not even close. I don't think many catholics or protestants want to kill each other in the US.

Probably the closest comparison for the US would be blacks vs. whites.

you're right, you just fund the IRA through NORAID collections in New York don't you and let them kill each other back in their "home" land (even though there are more paddys in New York than there are in the Repulic of Ireland

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I still think the Protestant/Catholic, Sunni/Shia comparison is the best we've got.

How about the Union and the Confederacy?

[Gawain 0]

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I still think the Protestant/Catholic, Sunni/Shia comparison is the best we've got.

How about the Union and the Confederacy?

I thought about that too. But in the end, our short history has not provided us with an experience which truly mirrors or parallels the issues facing some of the Iraqis right now. A closer parallel would be American expansion and the put down of the Indians that resisted our colonization.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[pajarito 0]

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I still think the Protestant/Catholic, Sunni/Shia comparison is the best we've got.

How about the Union and the Confederacy?

Are we talking religion or politics here?

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Are we talking religion or politics here?

I don't think they can be seperated with respect to Iraq.

With respect to what they are fighting over, Catholic/Protestant is similar. With respect to the tendancy to violence because someone is on the "other side," I think our Civil War, or at least the years leading up to it more closely resemble the situation in Iraq.
In the US, Catolics and Protestants tend to not be motivated to kill one another. The yankees and the rebels were.