Shotgun 1 #1 September 11, 2005 With all the talk of whether or not people believe in God, I am curious to know how many people believe in Satan. Now obviously anyone who believes in the Christian Bible must believe in Satan, so I am interested more in hearing from those who have their own interpretation of "God". Do you also have your own interpretation of "Satan"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #2 September 11, 2005 I seem to believe that anybody going to hell will experience their own personal hell related to their lives... If I went to hell, maybe my personal hell would be repeatedly bouncing on double malfunctions or no pulls or something... "oh shit WHACK".... "oh shit WHACK".... "oh shit WHACK"... Imagine that repeating itself for eternity! "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chutem 0 #3 September 11, 2005 Hell no. James Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #4 September 11, 2005 QuoteI seem to believe that anybody going to hell will experience their own personal hell related to their lives... If I went to hell, maybe my personal hell would be repeatedly bouncing on double malfunctions or no pulls or something... "oh shit WHACK".... "oh shit WHACK".... "oh shit WHACK"... Ok... But do you believe in _Satan_? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #5 September 11, 2005 Yeah I beleive in her, she lives in Cali. She was supposed to be my high school sweet heart. Man was she sneaky. Now she has some other poor bastard in league with her!An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #6 September 11, 2005 Hmmm. Satan is Satan. Lucifer is Lucifer. Beelzebub is Beelzebub. Or did you mean adversary to the Christian god? Satan is judeochristian, and he is currently percieved differently from his role within their sacred texts. Dualistic belief systems require balance, if your system has a good god then you must have something to balance him out. In a faith model that posits an infinitely good god it is impossible for there to be an equally bad adversary. God is everything. God is infinitely loving and forgiving. An infinitely forgiving God must, by definition, forgive anything. Therefor everyone goes to heaven, no adversary is necessary and even if he should exist he could simply play piano and watch sunsets. If God refuses to forgive those that do not adhere to a particular rule then he is no longer infinitely forgiving or loving and therefor no longer infinite, since we have found a limit. The Bible says that there is a war between heaven and hell, but bases the victory of God on the fact that he is infinite and all powerful, which he isnt. So, Bible - religious history or Pro-YVWH propoganda? TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #7 September 11, 2005 QuoteYeah I beleive in her, she lives in Cali. She was supposed to be my high school sweet heart. Yikes, for a second I thought you were one of my ex-boyfriends... but his name wasn't Matthew. And AlexCrowley: I meant "Satan" as in "the Devil, the evil adversary of humanity," or something like that... Although in Anne Rice's "Memnoch The Devil," she has an interesting concept that Satan is really the good guy and God is the evil one, and that humanity has long been tricked... but that's a different topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,436 #8 September 11, 2005 I have noted that even some very devout catholics have trouble with the idea of a guy with a pitchfork and all being the embodiment of evil (or choose your own interpretation of Lucifer.) It's just too much like the bad guy in a James Bond movie. While some catholics do indeed believe in the devil, most see him closer to the Santa Claus end of the scale than the God end of the scale when it comes to mystical beings that really exist. (I'm choosing catholicism here because I have the most experience with it.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #9 September 12, 2005 So, does that mean that you do not believe in the devil (in whatever form)? (I never realized that Satan and Lucifer were not the same thing.) And, since you have such an interesting interpretation of what god is, do you believe in Heaven or Hell? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #10 September 12, 2005 No, don’t believe in Satan, or the devil, God, Jesus, or Father Christmas, ghosts, goblins, fairy’s, spirits, souls, orbs, homeopaths, psychics, dowsers, mediums, Spontaneous human combustion, lay lines, cold fusion, hollow Earth theory, spoon bending, alien abductions. or any other unproven pseudoscience crap….. Although I understand many people do and for an insight into why the I recommend reading this book why we believe----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #11 September 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteYeah I beleive in her, she lives in Cali. She was supposed to be my high school sweet heart. Yikes, for a second I thought you were one of my ex-boyfriends... but his name wasn't Matthew. And AlexCrowley: I meant "Satan" as in "the Devil, the evil adversary of humanity," or something like that... Although in Anne Rice's "Memnoch The Devil," she has an interesting concept that Satan is really the good guy and God is the evil one, and that humanity has long been tricked... but that's a different topic. The Gnostics got there a little before Ann Rice. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everon 0 #12 September 12, 2005 Satan only exists when one believes in christianity... Therefore, in my mind, he's certainly non-existent... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #13 September 12, 2005 I don't know a lot about Gnosticism, but I don't think that it's exactly the same idea(???). Either way, I'm sure that Anne Rice was not the first person to have the idea of Satan being good while God is evil, but she writes a good story about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #14 September 12, 2005 satan surely exists... she's lurking in these forums somewhere... satan. lucifer. same being. in the catholic tradition, lucifer was the fourth archangel, the angel of light, who, upon creation, did not like serving the creator. "I will not serve." For his (her, it, whatever), he was banished from Heaven, wherever that is, and hell came to be outside of God's presence. That is why one could not say that earth is hell, since God's presence is actually here too, in some form or another. it bothers me not in the least that many out there think that people like me are superstitious, or are throw-backs to the dark ages or whatever. I think satan is very much alive and his influence is too. I think his greatest coup has been to convince "enlightened" folks that he doesn't exist. just my two unrespected cents... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #15 September 12, 2005 QuoteI think his greatest coup has been to convince "enlightened" folks that he doesn't exist. Here we go again How long before you accuse someone else of starting it? Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #16 September 12, 2005 Not the same being! This is a traditional misconception that is not backed up by scripture, but simply is 'known' - it's a tradition. It's also wrong. In Isiah 14:12-22, the only mention of the name 'lucifer' is considered to have been added atop the original circa 300ad by St Jerome, the original reference was to a King of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar. Lucifer was a reference to the original hebrew word 'heylal' or 'morning star': venus. In fact, within the passage (v16) this person is refered to as a man Revelation does not refer to lucifer, it refers to Devil, Satan, the great dragon, or old serpent. The Amplified Bible discusses this fact: "Some students feel that the application of the name Lucifer to Satan is erroneous, even though it is commonly taught to that effect. Lucifer, THE LIGHT BRINGER, is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word phosphoros, which is used as a title of Christ in II Peter 1:19 (...until the DAY STAR arise in your hearts.) and corresponds to the name `BRIGHT MORNING STAR' in Rev. 22:16, which Jesus called Himself. The application of the name Lucifer has only existed since the third century A.D., and is based on the supposition that Luke 10:18 (I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven) is an explanation of Isaiah 14:12, which authorities feel is not true." The more modern Christian's error is more due to misunderstanding that in 300 AD the word for Venus the morning star was 'lucifer'. Also, heylal is not a propor noun, but a description. Additionally, it's important to remember that the early church did not recognize Satan as an external being, but an obstacle - over time this evolved into an adversary - a term to refer to any person or group of enemies. This has remained so within Judaism, whereas Christians have externalized Satan into it's own independent personality around the time of that the NT was being written and has evolved since then. There's a great deal of information available on lucifer and satan. Elaine Pagels The Origin of Satan is pretty good. There's a paperback or you can find a condensed version from the 1997 Tanner Lectures series (pdf is available online if you search for it). TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luv2Fall 0 #17 September 12, 2005 Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #18 September 12, 2005 When you get accused of being in league with anyone more than a few times, you start researching it. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #19 September 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteI think his greatest coup has been to convince "enlightened" folks that he doesn't exist. Here we go again How long before you accuse someone else of starting it? what are you talking about? and why must you fling your shitty attitude about my beliefs my way? I don't shit on you for your beliefs or your lifestyle, do I Keith? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #20 September 12, 2005 that was a very impressive missive... I must say... haven't done much research on that, just was spouting on what I remember being taught, that satan and lucy were the same person... that's another thing i'll have to look into... alex, if you keep this up, i'll never get any of my real work done... by the way, you haven't jogged my mammories... what were those other things I was going to look into that we spoke of last week? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #21 September 12, 2005 QuoteI don't know a lot about Gnosticism, but I don't think that it's exactly the same idea(???). If I'm not mistaken, Gnosticism is the belief in a supreme being, say God. Agnosticism is the non-belief in any religion or supreme being. In other words, if you're agnostic, you're an atheist. Is that about right?"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #22 September 12, 2005 They're just slightly different: Quoteagnostic a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. b.One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. atheism a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods. And again, I don't know much about Gnosticism, but here is a brief definition: QuoteGnosticism The doctrines of certain pre-Christian pagan, Jewish, and early Christian sects that valued the revealed knowledge of God and of the origin and end of the human race as a means to attain redemption for the spiritual element in humans and that distinguished the Demiurge from the unknowable Divine Being. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #23 September 12, 2005 Gnostics were one of the early sects that gained some popularity C200 AD, the movement was pretty much wiped out for heresy Gnostics (from gnosis: knowledge) were mystic Christians who believed that they had hidden knowledge of the divine. Basically: Gnostics believed that the God Yehwah of the old testament was an evil God. This evil God created the Earth and was trapping our souls in physical form and binding us onto the material plane. Jesus came to save us by preaching of an all powerful God (above Yehwah) who could free us from this evil bound state. Jesus' God was more abstract than the Jewish . Before the compilation of the NT as we know it today there were many gospels, including the gnostic texts - these had a different focus than the ones currently accepted - these can be reviewed in a number of printed books or here. What commentaries written about gnostics remain are written mostly by the orthodox Christian victors - so they are largely very unflattering. Having read several of the Gnostic Gospels I found them to present a far more accessible religion than the dogmatic version that gained popularity. I think the concept of the two Gods makes a great deal of sense if you compare the OT and NT Gods. In an unbiased reading of the OT, YWHW's evolution from tribal god among many other god's to 'THE ONLY GOD' in the pages of the OT is a very immature, vain and capricious deity even in comparison to the traditional NT we read today. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #24 September 12, 2005 gnosis = knowledge. Gnostic's believed in hidden knowledge. Thomas Huxley coined the term 'agnostic': " When I reached intellectual maturity, and began to ask myself whether I was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; a Christian or a freethinker, I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until at last I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure that they had attained a certain "gnosis" -- had more or less successfully solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble.And, with Hume and Kant on my side, I could not think myself presumptuous in holding fast by that opinion. [...] So I took thought, and invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of "agnostic". It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the "gnostic" of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant; and I took the earliest opportunity of parading it at our Society, to show that I, too, had a tail, like the other foxes. [Quoted in "Encylopaedia of Religion and Ethics", 1908, edited by James Hastings MA DD] " TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #25 September 12, 2005 While I'd love to jog them I don't remember either and I didnt feel like wading through the 600 responses on the other thread. Probably something to do with saints/pagan pantheons, idolatry or paul destroying Christianity before it got anywhere (see the Gnostic stuff). TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
