Student kills 5 at school and grandparents

[jeiber 0]

Interesting... this came from the UK, so all the U.S. bashers can bite their tongue on this one! Please read the article, not the summary. It's very interesting!

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned. The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm

Trivial Homocide Statistics in U.S.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm#contents

Interesting trend - look at the trend in 'justifiable homocide'. Law enforcement is down, citizens are up.... and people want to take our guns away?

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[JohnRich 4]

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Lol, Switzerland, Ron, JR, ever been there? If and when you where there, how many guns did you see? Many side arms strapped to the people there? lol

The entirety of your responses to many arguments seems to consist of simply: "lol".

You'll have to pardon me if I'm not impressed with your depth of understanding, facts and logic.

That response seems flippant, and makes it look like you haven't bothered to give anyone's argument serious consideration.

[SkyDekker 1,147]

actually if you read on, there was a question there, one you failed to answer. I am left to assume you ahve neevr been to Switzerland then, which certainly does not give a lot of credibility to your answer. Hence, I laughed, out loud even.

[craddock 0]

l

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Lol, Switzerland, Ron, JR, ever been there? If and when you where there, how many guns did you see? Many side arms strapped to the people there?

>actually if you read on, there was a question there, one you failed to answer.

Well since I live in a country that has plenty of guns and own many myself yet have not seen civilians with sidearms strapped to them, I did not think it was obvious that you were actually asking a question.
In fact I don't quite know what your point was.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[SkyDekker 1,147]

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In fact I don't quite know what your point was.

The point was that those who responded Switzerland to my earlier querry have obviously never been to switzerland, or they would have known it wasn't a very good answer.

[craddock 0]

But why? because they did not see people toting guns around the streets. I have spent 32 years in the US and have never seen it here.
I am not implying there are a lot of guns over there, but don't try to put someone down because they should know they are few guns over there by the lack of people flaunting them. Chances are if you met me and even spent some time with me, you would have no idea I owned guns unless it came up or we met actually using them. Range or hunting,ect..

If you are ever in the area look me up. I would love to take you to a great sporting clays course we have in the woods at a range down here to introduce you to the gun nuts you speak of. I will of course provide you with an adequete shotgun to try your hand on the course. Be careful though, It can be addicting.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[JohnRich 4]

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The point was that those who responded Switzerland to my earlier querry have obviously never been to switzerland, or they would have known it wasn't a very good answer.

Incorrect.

In Switzerland, every adult male is a member of the militia, ready to respond to a call to muster with military weaponry should their country be attacked. They are issued full-automatic military rifles, which are kept in their own homes, with a battle-pack of ammo, ready for immediate use.

Yet, in a country with a machine-gun (i.e. "assault weapon") in nearly every home, they don't go around shooting up schools full of children.

Why? Culture.

America's problem is not one of guns. It's one of culture. In decades past, guns were more readily available, with fewer restrictive regulations. Anyone could go into any hardware store and buy a gun, without a background check. And yet we didn't shoot each other with anywhere near the frequency we do today.

Why? Culture. Kids learn their lessons now from gangster rap music, rather than "Leave it to Beaver". Instead of two parent families with stay-at-home moms for supervision, now we have single parent homes, where violent video games are the baby-sitter. Schools are more worried about building self-esteem rather than teaching personal morality and distinguishing between right and wrong. Our culture has changed for the worse. And no one wants to admit it, or do anything about it. It's easier to just blame the guns...

Yeah, school shootings are the NRA's fault.

[justinb138 0]

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It's easier to just blame the guns...

Or violence in movies, video games, or on the radio, etc....

[kallend 1,651]

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The point was that those who responded Switzerland to my earlier querry have obviously never been to switzerland, or they would have known it wasn't a very good answer.

Incorrect.

In Switzerland, every adult male is a member of the militia, ready to respond to a call to muster with military weaponry should their country be attacked. They are issued full-automatic military rifles, which are kept in their own homes, with a battle-pack of ammo, ready for immediate use.

Yet, in a country with a machine-gun (i.e. "assault weapon") in nearly every home, they don't go around shooting up schools full of children.

Why? Culture.

America's problem is not one of guns. It's one of culture. In decades past, guns were more readily available, with fewer restrictive regulations. Anyone could go into any hardware store and buy a gun, without a background check. And yet we didn't shoot each other with anywhere near the frequency we do today.

Why? Culture. Kids learn their lessons now from gangster rap music, rather than "Leave it to Beaver". Instead of two parent families with stay-at-home moms for supervision, now we have single parent homes, where violent video games are the baby-sitter. Schools are more worried about building self-esteem rather than teaching personal morality and distinguishing between right and wrong. Our culture has changed for the worse. And no one wants to admit it, or do anything about it. It's easier to just blame the guns...

Yeah, school shootings are the NRA's fault.

Tell us, how much training do Swiss militia members undergo? How much training do American militia members undergo?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,651]

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It's easier to just blame the guns...

Or violence in movies, video games, or on the radio, etc....

It's just a cop-out. Movies, music, videogames, etc. are every bit as violent in Europe and Australia as they are in the USA.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[crozby 0]

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It's just a cop-out. Movies, music, videogames, etc. are every bit as violent in Europe and Australia as they are in the USA.
...

Fair point. So what is the reason that Americans do these things and others, including I believe Canadians who have more guns per capita, dont?

[jeiber 0]

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Our culture has changed for the worse. And no one wants to admit it, or do anything about it. It's easier to just blame the guns...

Good God! I actually agree with you!!!! Now if you could take this logic into other threads.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[Kennedy 0]

That's for sociologists to figure out. Some simple (soundbyte-ish) reasons I have are:

TV and teachers taking place of parents
less parental involvement
failure to recognize warning signs


maybe we're just a more violent society?
(more murders than other places, but significantly lower crime rate)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[flyangel2 2]

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TV and teachers taking place of parents
less parental involvement
failure to recognize warning signs

Parents need to be parents: If that means going into their children's rooms and seeing what is in there, so be it. I've done, and will continue to do till my boys move out, even thought one is in college. You live under my roof, you follow my rules.

Less Parental involvement: See above.

Failure to recognize warning signs: See above.

I'm not saying my life was perfect with my boys, but they have turned out wonderful. After this last school killings, I asked my boys what I did write, and they both said that it was because I never gave up on them and when there were bad spots between us, I rode them harder.

I am one lucky parent.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Kennedy 0]

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so anyhoo ... why do people suppose that whenever there is a story in the news about a kid shooting relatives, friends or school teachers, it's always a kid from the USA?

18 dead in school shooting in Germany

Multiple school stabbing in Japan, where guns are banned

China's School Killings - Authorities and parents are searching for answers after a rash of child murders.

and so on, sadly...

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[SkyDekker 1,147]

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Incorrect.

In Switzerland, every adult male is a member of the militia, ready to respond to a call to muster with military weaponry should their country be attacked. They are issued fullautomatic military rifles, which are kept in their own homes, with a battle-pack of ammo, ready for immediate use.

Only those accepted into mandatory military service. They are subsequently trained on it. It is to be used in military action against outside forces. Not allowed to carry outside the house. Storage requirements for ammo and rifle. I could go on and on and on.

Like I said, sounds like you haven't been there. Ever seen one of those rifles? Or for that matter, any of the hollowed out mountains used by their military?

On the second note, since your seem to agree that your culture and guns aren't a great mix together, as a matter of fact, they seem to be a problem together, then why is the answer increased gun ownership?

[mnealtx 0]

Why is YOUR answer always for making people defenseless

*practically* defenseless against criminals...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SkyDekker 1,147]

people without a gun are defenseless?

[justinb138 0]

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people without a gun are defenseless?

No, but in certain situations at a considerable disadvantage.

[kelel01 1]

Disclaimer: I'm NOT anti-gun. I'm neutral.

But isn't the whole pro-gun community's argument that you don't need a gun to kill someone? Hence, why would NOT having one render you defenseless?

[justinb138 0]

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Disclaimer: I'm NOT anti-gun. I'm neutral.

For the record, I own two guns, but do not yet have a CHL. It's something I plan on getting, but isn't a top priority at the moment.

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But isn't the whole pro-gun community's argument that you don't need a gun to kill someone? Hence, why would NOT having one render you defenseless?

Hmm. Interesting point.
I don't feel that being without a gun wouldn't render you defenseless at all. But if you were in a situation needing to defend youself, for most people a gun is much more effective defense tool (assuming the gun owner is properly trained in its use) than a pocket knife, and carrying around a baseball bat for defense is kind of cumbersome.

[JohnRich 4]

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In Switzerland, every adult male is a member of the militia, ready to respond to a call to muster with military weaponry should their country be attacked. They are issued fullautomatic military rifles, which are kept in their own homes, with a battle-pack of ammo, ready for immediate use.

Only those accepted into mandatory military service. They are subsequently trained on it. It is to be used in military action against outside forces. Not allowed to carry outside the house.

Incorrect again. They are encouraged to use those same rifles in civilian shooting competitions, to stay sharp on their marksmanship. The government even gives them the ammo.

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Ever seen one of those rifles? Or for that matter, any of the hollowed out mountains used by their military?

Irrelevant.

If you're going to start claiming that you are automatically correct about everything Swiss, just because you've been there, then you will also have to concede that everything I say about guns is correct, since I've done more shooting than you. Deal?

[SkyDekker 1,147]

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They are encouraged to use those same rifles in civilian shooting competitions, to stay sharp on their marksmanship. The government even gives them the ammo.

As part of their training yes. Military is ingrained in their cilvilian life much more. You still haven't answered the question as to wether or not you have actually been there and spent some time there.

On top of that, the basic concept is comepletely different. Theirs is top defend themselves against outside forces. Yours is to defend yourself against your own government.

[kelpdiver 2]

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But isn't the whole pro-gun community's argument that you don't need a gun to kill someone? Hence, why would NOT having one render you defenseless?

The full argument that is if we somehow removed guns from the world, that the big and strong and corrupt would still be able to kill.

The real world argument is that guns are the most readily available equalizer against those sorts of people, who will likely not follow any laws against possession of guns anyway.

[JohnRich 4]

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They are encouraged to use those same rifles in civilian shooting competitions, to stay sharp on their marksmanship. The government even gives them the ammo.

As part of their training yes.

No, as I said, they can use them in civilian shooting competitions, or just take them out to the range on the weekend and plink with them. Usage is not tied only to military training. Do an internet search on this, and you'll find ample support for what I'm saying. And once they're too old and their militia service is complete, they are still allowed to keep their military select-fire rifle, so it still stays in their home with them.

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You still haven't answered the question as to wether or not you have actually been there and spent some time there.

I didn't address your question because it is irrelevant. Whether I've seen one of their caves in a mountainside, has no bearing upon how well-versed I am about the Swiss militia system. And apparently, I know more about it than you do.

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On top of that, the basic concept is comepletely different. Theirs is top defend themselves against outside forces. Yours is to defend yourself against your own government.

Incorrect yet again. It's to defend against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. The liberals claim the National Guard is now the "militia" referred to in the 2nd Amendment. If that is so, and their only purpose is internal defense, then how come they've been called up and are being used in Iraq?

Supporting quote:
"...arms discourage and keep invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine