do you think evil really exists?

[pajarito 0]

Sure, but as Phelps said, why did they believe so fervently? Why were they all willing to die martyrs deaths themselves in the defense of what they thought to be true? It’s because they saw it happen. If they "knew it to be false" and were just starting a new religion or had selfish interests in mind, would they be willing to undergo torture and execution? That's way different from the terrorist homicide bombers in the Middle East. Sure, they're strapping bombs to themselves and blowing themselves and others up for something they “believe” to be true. However, if they knew it wasn't true, would they still do it? I seriously doubt it. And blowing yourself up goes a lot quicker and is a lot less painful than torture and crucifixion. There are also non-Christian, Roman, and Jewish records that describe the crucifixion of Jesus.

[Zenister 0]

lots of people die just a fervently for political causes... that says nothing about the worthiness of the cause, it only shows the extremes to which the believer is willing to go to further it...

as i pointed out earlier... the heretics died just as well as the 'believers', and has been pointed out many times before... so do the islamic suicide bombers nearly everyday lately..

are they just as right in your mind? why not? because you have a belief different from theirs?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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However, if they knew it wasn't true, would they still do it? I seriously doubt it. And blowing yourself up goes a lot quicker and is a lot less painful than torture and crucifixion.

your savior got off rather easy as far as crucifixion goes.. so i guess everyone who didnt get stabbed in the side has a more worthy cause? simply because they suffered more? its a ridiculous argument... if your going that route i believe the monks in tibet have you beat.. there really arent many stronger more significant statements you can make supporting your cause than to willingly set yourself ablaze to make a point....

you may doubt because its something you wouldnt do yourself, but quite clearly fanatics of all stripes will do whatever they can to further their ends... you are accepting on faith that their ends were spiritual.. they could have easily been political instead, and they would die just as well...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

You’re saying that a person would be willing to undergo torture, crucifixion, and death for something he “knew” to be false. All I’m trying to point out is that all of those who witnessed what Jesus did and died for it believed what they “saw.” Not what they were told. They were sincere in what they were spreading and were not doing it for the selfish reasons you’re stating. You’re examples of others dying for their causes aren’t the same. They didn’t actually witness their God perform a miracle such as Jesus did in front of thousands. Sure, they believe what they believe with all their hearts and some are willing to burn themselves to death. I seriously doubt, however, that they would do the same if they ”knew” that it was all false.

[Zenister 0]

no i'm saying that the real goal could have easily been political change.. that cannot be false and very evidently MANY people are willing to undergo a great deal of suffering and hardships for exactly that..

the myths surrounding simply support the political agenda, if they admitted they 'made the story up' to attract followers, they would be undermining their real cause...

you have no real idea that anyone actually saw what the gospels claim or that they really believed it, you are making an assumption because YOU believe it...

quite easily a core group could spread a story and have it take hold of the imagination of the people who heard it, who then spread it with the fervor of a 'true believer'. Particularly a good story, and there is no doubting that the 'passion' is a good story... in a primitive culture the best story ALWAYS grows faster than the truth...

the examples i used are EXACTLY the same... anyone fanatical to a cause will do a number of 'unbelievable' things to further that cause... including dying..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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you have no real idea that anyone actually saw what the gospels claim or that they really believed it, you are making an assumption because YOU believe it...

I believe Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence even though I wasn’t there to see it.

[kallend 1,679]

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you have no real idea that anyone actually saw what the gospels claim or that they really believed it, you are making an assumption because YOU believe it...

I believe Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence even though I wasn’t there to see it.

That's because it's altogether more believable.

I believe that you exist even though I haven't seen you, because people just like you are in my experience.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nemo 0]

Rather interesting thread, folks.

Based on research (mostly other people's), the only thing I can add to this debate is a bit of help with the origins of the name Lucifer.

Lucifer, it would seem, has nothing at all to do with the devil, whether you believe in the evil bastard or not. The word is of latin origin which means 'morning star'. The morning star we all know and love is also called Venus.

The quote from Isaiah 14:12 is actually about a fallen Babylonian king, who persecuted Jews during his reign.

So if you believe in the Devil, Satan or Dr. Evil himself, just don't call him Lucifer. I hear he hates that.


D

[josheezammit 0]

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you have no real idea that anyone actually saw what the gospels claim or that they really believed it, you are making an assumption because YOU believe it...

Zen, gotta call B.S. Roman history even coincides with christian history, in the roman records, that have been recovered, from jerusalem, it is written, "Jesus of nazareth, risen from the dead"

Ahh, what a wonderful world.

[Shotgun 1]

According to one of my ex-boyfriends, _I_ am evil... and, well, he's probably right... So yeah, I guess I do believe in evil.

How does that saying go??? Something like, "I don't trust anything that bleeds for seven days and doesn't die."

[pajarito 0]

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That's because it's altogether more believable

I believe that you exist even though I haven't seen you, because people just like you are in my experience.

Why is that? You’ve only seen words that I’ve typed. Your only authentication is that others who personally know me have said I am who I am. You’ve never seen me or the physical hard disk on which this text file resides. Then it comes down to their credibility. SkymonkeyOne is my 1st Cousin, he knows me very well, and I think most here would trust him if he says who I am. Even if there was no original text file of my work and it had to be retrieved from a backup copy made by Sangiro. Granted, digital backups and duplication are incredibly more accurate and reliable than hand written copies. There is no disputing the fact that there are inaccuracies in the New Testament text due to this. However, taken “altogether”, it is much more accurate than many give it credit. The evidence simply does not show that the writers were untrustworthy, careless, or uneducated. Nor were the ones who originally copied it. Given the number of corroborating eye-witness records, there is certainly enough evidence for it to not be dismissed altogether. There was a man named Jesus who was tortured, crucified, and killed which was confirmed by a spear to the side, was buried and guarded in a tomb, and who rose from the dead three days later. He claimed to be God. He proved himself to be such.

On a side note, there are no “original” works of Shakespeare, however most accept that the works we have are in fact his. It is probably in your “experience” as it has been in mine. Does this sound familiar?

“Third, the notion that plays ascribed to Shakespeare were actually written by others (Sir Francis Bacon, the poet Phillip Sidney among the candidates) has become even weaker over time. The current strong consensus is that while Shakespeare may have collaborated with another Elizabethan playwright in at least one instance (probably with John Fletcher on The Two Noble Kinsman), and that one or two of his plays were completed by someone else (possibly Fletcher on an original or revised version of Henry VIII), the works ascribed to Shakespeare are his.”

Shakespeare

I think that everyone at some point in time seriously wonders what will happen to them when they die. What’s next beyond the great unknown? It can be a very scary thought. The idea still disturbs me because I really don’t like surprises. For most, it probably doesn’t start to really bother them until they get very old. Although, any one of us could die today jumping out of an airplane or even driving down the road. With me, it began when my Grandfather, whom I was very close to, died in 1995. The reality and fragility of my own mortality hit me right in the face due to my deep concern for his. I think that one of the reasons people are often so hostile to the idea that what’s written in the New Testament might be true is that it hits on the impending physical death that will visit us all. It’s easier to accept things written about less life critical topics. However, I think it foolish for one to dismiss it without careful consideration. I respect Zenister’s position even though I strongly disagree with it because it’s obvious that he’s taken the time to think deeply on the subject. That’s all anyone could ask.

Edited to add: By the way, I'm leaving soon for the SEC Championship Game in Atlanta. Time to put the "ass whoopidda" on Tennessee! Bring it suckas!!!

[freeryde13 0]

yes evil exists.( it's not good or bad, it just is) without evil there is no good. just like there is no up if you can't compare it to down. there cannot be a negative energy without a positive energy.

so yes ,evil exists in tandem with whatever the oposite of evil is. good i guess. and in all men there is both good and evil.

maybe another question would be what are exaples of how good and evil manfest themselves in our lives? and is there anyone in this world who is one and not the other?

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people see me as a challenge to their balance

[Zenister 0]

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you have no real idea that anyone actually saw what the gospels claim or that they really believed it, you are making an assumption because YOU believe it...

Zen, gotta call B.S. Roman history even coincides with christian history, in the roman records, that have been recovered, from jerusalem, it is written, "Jesus of nazareth, risen from the dead"

really? find me a source.. a non religious source that confirms this...

christians like to continually claim such.. but the sources they use are suspect..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[josheezammit 0]

dude, I have seen this in many history channel and discovery channel shows on roman history and I know that I can find some soon. but for starters here is an article from th seattle times, clearly not a christ based news paper.

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A cultured sophisticate?


That evidence shows, among other things, that Jesus was born, lived and died a Jew, a perspective at odds with beliefs that Jesus rejected Judaism to form a new religion or taught a pagan-influenced humanist philosophy, Shanks and other scholars said. It also indicates Jesus was a cultured sophisticate, not a peasant naif as he is often portrayed.




Foremost have been excavations at Sepphoris, a magnificent first-century city four miles from Nazareth; at Capernaum, a fishing village on the north shore of the Sea of Galilee where Jesus' ministry was based; and at what may have been Bethsaida, home of three apostles and the third most-mentioned town in the Gospels.

Part of the excitement at Sepphoris has come from the ruins of a Greco-Roman amphitheater that Sepphoris archaeologist James Strange believes existed in Jesus' time. Textual scholars have wondered where Jesus picked up the word "hypocrite," a Greek word that means "actor" and that Jesus uses 24 times to refer to someone's insincere religiosity, Strange says in the documentary.

The presence of the theater in a metropolis within view of Nazareth, possibly the source of the "city on the hill that can't be hidden" metaphor in the Sermon on the Mount, suggests Jesus might have learned "hypocrite" from seeing Greek-language performances there, Strange surmises.

"Life isn't like in the tiny village of Nazareth with its fruit and nut trees," Strange said. In Sepphoris, "Jesus would have gotten a glimpse of Roman culture."

He and Joseph, his father, might even have helped build Sepphoris, a city razed after a Jewish revolt and ordered rebuilt by Herod Antipas early in the first century as a center of law and commerce. Many buildings were massive, with white plaster walls, red tile roofs and mosaic floors.

The construction project would have involved carpenters, masons and other laborers "from 30 to 40 miles around," Strange said. And the Nazarenes would have moved easily among the people, because the discovery of mikvahs, or Jewish ritual baths, in virtually every house suggests that the population of more than 12,000 was Jewish, he said.

this is my edit, documentation from the history channel on sources of information on Jesus' Life,

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Primary Sources of Information on Jesus

The primary sources for Jesus' life and teaching are the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (see articles on the individual books, e.g., Matthew, Gospel according to), though these are not biographies but theologically framed accounts of the ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus, i.e., of the basic subject matter of Christian preaching and teaching. Other books of the New Testament add few further details. Among non-Christian writers of antiquity, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger refer to Jesus, as does Josephus (Joseph ben Matthias) in at least one passage. The 2d-century Gospel of Thomas sheds light on the development of the tradition of Jesus' sayings.

I will still find you more, Zenister

Ahh, what a wonderful world.

[Nightingale 0]

I think it exists, but only in the hearts and minds of humans, not as a supernatural force or entity.

[Zenister 0]

your first quote (from the Washington Post, reprinted in the ST) is an editorial, the conclusions it presents are NOT made by the scholars and scientists actually doing the work, but are instead being made by the writer…http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001824216_jesus27.html and are obviously flawed when compared to the statements the archeologists ACTUALLY made even inside the article…

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Evans and other scholars said, is that archaeologists in recent years have been searching for — and finding — contextual clues to the world inhabited by Jesus and his followers.
"We don't even have much direct archaeological evidence that (Jesus) walked this Earth," said Hershel Shanks, editor of Washington-based Biblical Archaeological Review and host of "An Archaeological Search for Jesus," a five-part video/DVD series featuring more than 20 leading archaeologists and biblical scholars. "What we have is lots and lots of evidence about the world he lived in.

editorials are not evidence.. if you can find the actual study by the scientists you’ll be much better off, but I don’t believe they have published their findings yet… the evidence revealed thus far doesn’t support the existence of Jesus himself so much as it verifies elements of the culture referred to in the NT and states that they may have discovered linguistic links between the NT writers and the Roman culture they were a part of….it says nothing about who those writers were or the validity of the events as written.....also note the liberal use of the word 'might' particularly from the archeologists themselves who are not trying to appease an audience but instead are looking for facts to base conclusions on, vs the writer (obviously a believer) seeking any crumb to claim “see we are RIGHT!”

read all sources critically, and not for what you WANT them to say, something that writer obviously failed to do...

your second quote also appears in an editorial article that directly cites religious sources, check the bibliography section from the research it qoutes and get back to me when you find a secular source..

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See J. P. Mackey, Jesus, the Man and the Myth (1979); J. D. G. Dunn, The Evidence for Jesus (1985); E. P. Sanders, Jesus and Judaism (1985); J. D. Crossan, The Historical Jesus (1991); M. Casey, From Jewish Prophet to Gentile God (1991); J. P. Meier, A Marginal Jew (2 vol., 1991-); D. Flusser, Jesus (2d ed. 1997); T. Cahill, Desire of the Everlasting Hills (1999). For a survey of Jesus in art and literature, see J. Pelikan, Jesus through the Centuries (1985).

of those I have the Mackey and the Dunn books.. neither are secular writers…
again read critically, and not for what you wish to believe is being said..

have you read Pliny's reference? perhaps you should...then see if you still think it counts as 'evidence'

and btw the non christian references cited in the original paper as referring to Jesus are inferences, not definitive. Several of the 'sources' it cites as mentioning Jesus are scholars documenting the rumors and stories that relate to him as the early church spread... this documents the belief of the early church, NOT the existence or activities of Jesus himself..

since your searching the internet perhaps you found this? its from one of the longer papers that many internet sites (several that repeat your passage) quotes directly from...

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Non - Christian Sources
Among Roman historians, Tacitus (Annals 15.44) records that the Christian movement began with Jesus, who was sentenced to death by Pontius Pilate. Suetonius (Claudius 25.4) refers to the expulsion of the Jews from Rome because of a riot instigated by one "Chrestus" in AD c. 48, and this is usually taken to be a confused reference to the Christians and their founder. Pliny the Younger (Epistles 10.96), writing to Emperor Trajan, says that the early Christians sang a hymn to Christ as God. Most of the Jewish evidence is late and anti Christian propaganda, but an early reference in the Babylonian Talmud says that Jeshu ha - Nocri was a false prophet who was hanged on the eve of the Passover for sorcery and false teaching. The evidence from the historian Josephus is problematical. He recounts (Antiquities 20.9.1) the martyrdom of James, "the brother of Jesus called the Christ," in AD 62.

Another passage in the Antiquities (18.3.3) gives an extended account of Jesus and his career, but some features of it are clearly Christian interpolations. Whether this passage has an authentic nucleus is debated. Thus the Roman sources show a vague awareness that Jesus was a historical figure as well as the object of a cult; the reliable Jewish sources tell us that he was a Jewish teacher who was put to death for sorcery and false prophecy and that he had a brother named James. The Jewish evidence is especially valuable because of the hostility between Jews and Christians at the time: it would have been easy for the Jewish side to question the existence of Jesus, but this they never did.

when you find a DIRECT source that refers to Jesus, and not one that was documenting the rumors and activities surrounding early church and his disciples, you will have made a real discovery... outside of the Gospels there are NO direct sources that document the existence of Jesus at all... the closest is the jewish sources that refer to him, but again they are documenting the beliefs and teachings of the developing Christian church that opposed them, not citing an actual encounter or verifying the existence of Jesus or his teachings beyond the reference to him as the central figure of the early church that opposed them… obviously the early church believed in him… documenting that belief does not document the man….

just so you understand what i'm saying here... someone that has met me is a direct source... someone that repeats a story they were told, from someone who never actually met me is a secondary, tertiary etc...source... ie "a friend of my brothers girlfriend told her.." isnt evidence of much except the tendency of humanity to spread rumors... I’ve got a great bigfoot story my uncle told me happened to one of his hunting buddies… are you going to believe in bigfoot based on that tale??

keep looking, but try to set aside your belief when you weighing the value of the source... it is very difficult to see the world clearly with the dust of belief in your eyes…

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[josheezammit 0]

I will keep looking just a side note I don't feel that you should refer to belief as a dust it might offend some people, but not me however, your words don't hurt me they help me prepare myself better and I gotta say thanks for that, we christians like to think of our faith as a vision enhancement, not a vision inhibitor.

just to close out the day I wanted to quote somebody, in reference to that comment that you made about the trees making the wind, funny stuff man,

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One cannot see the wind, you can see the effects of wind, you see there is a mystery to it......

Hope one day dude, you can sit back and enjoy this big mystery, with the truth in one hand, and a coke and a smile in the other

Ahh, what a wonderful world.

[Zenister 0]

i'm not terribly worried about offending anyone..honestly if your emotionally involved in an internet discussion about a subject there is very little that qualifies as 'proof' well....

however if we are able to have an open discussion about any subject and are willing to attempt to examine the elements under discussion in an objective manner i'll gladly have a drink, meal etc and continue such discussions in person with anyone.. examination is the only real method to progress, to attempt to find the 'Truth' as it were...

but the dust comment isnt intended to offend, it is a metaphor, one often used in eastern philosophy. Just as you cannot see clearly if you have something in your eyes... you cannot think objectively if you always return to a preconceived idea of 'how things really are'...

and wind is a good example for these sorts of discussions.. Primitive man created all sorts of tales and myths that 'explained' why it exists and what its purpose was... we can now demonstrate exactly what creates wind, and recreate it ourselves in a controlled environment.. Granted 'real world weather' has a great many factors that make its behavior at any specific instance more complex and difficult to predict. However there is no 'mystery' to it any longer, and we no longer have to resort to fireside tales and flights of fancy to answer the questions of our children ask about it for anything more than amusement..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[br0k3n 0]

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You are not following what I said. Suicide bombers and other religous fanatics die for what they BELIEVE to be true. But Jesus disciples died for what they KNEW to be fact (as in they saw the risen Christ). Had they made his resurection up, it would be very unusual for them all to be willing to die for what they KNEW they made up.

your debating what was written in a book, that to date has no authenticity... we may aswell be debating what happened to Harry Potter

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[josheezammit 0]

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however if we are able to have an open discussion about any subject and are willing to attempt to examine the elements under discussion in an objective manner i'll gladly have a drink, meal etc and continue such discussions in person with anyone.. examination is the only real method to progress, to attempt to find the 'Truth' as it were...

we will see you at the holiday boogie then, i'll bye ya a beer

Ahh, what a wonderful world.