For those who claim Kerry should have known the ROE in Vietnam.

[PhillyKev 0]

We had a discussion where some of you thought it unreasonable that Kerry would commit illegal acts in Vietnam and not know they were illegal until after the fact. Some historical evidence below of how that could be likely from the Korean War

From Eighth Army Headquarters (the highest command in Korea) to all US and South Korean units, 3 January 1951:

This reiterates previous instructions that you have complete authority in your zone to stop all civilian traffic in any direction. Responsibility to place fire on them to include bombing rests with you.

From memo from Col. Turner C. Rogers, U.S. Fifth Air Force deputy for operations, on 25 July 1950:

II.3. The army has requested that we strafe all civilian refugee parties that are noted approaching our positions.

II.4. To date, we have complied with the army request in this request.

From the communications log (journal) of the Eight Cavalry Regiment, 24 July 1950:

No refugees to cross the front line. Fire everyone trying to cross lines. Use discretion in case of women and children.

From memo from Major General Kean to 25th Infantry Division, 27 July 1950:

Korean police have been directed to remove all civilians from the area between the blue lines shown on the attached overlay and report the evacuation has been completed.

All civilians seen in this area are to be considered as enemy and action taken accordingly.

From headquarters journal for 25th Infantry Division, 26 July 1950:

CG (Kean) directed we notify Chief of Police that all civilians moving around in combat zone will be considered as unfriendly and shot.

From instructions to 25th Infantry Division from Maj. Gen Kean, July 1950:

PAREN COMMANDERS AT ALL LEVELS WILL TAKE DRASTIC ACTION TO PREVENT MOVEMENT OF ANY KOREAN CIVILIAN PERSONNEL INTO THEIR AREAS WITHIN THE COMBAT ZONE PD CIVILIANS WITHIN THE COMBAT ZONE ARE TO BE CONSIDERED AS ENEMY

From the log of the 1st Battalion, 8th Cavalry Regiment, 9 August 1950:

Shoot all refugees coming across river - from Scrappy 6 [i.e., Col. Raymond D. Palmer].

From the journal of the 1st Cavalry Division artillery command, 29 August 1950:

Fr Capt Frohardt: Saber 6 [i.e. Gen. Gay] orders all refugees to be fired on.

From Action Summary for US Navy aircraft carrier Valley Forge, 25 July 1950:

Several groups of fifteen to twenty people dressed in white were sighted. The first group was strafed by one plane in accordance with information from the Army that groups of more than eight to ten people were to be considered troops, and were to be attacked.

From a message from Chaplain Phillips to the 25th Infantry Division's Intelligence section, 28 July 1950:

FIRST CAV IS TAKING ACTION AGAINST THE CIVILIANS WHO ARE REMAINING IN THE COMBAT AREA UP TO WITHIN TWO MILES OF KUMCHON BY THE USE OF BAYONETS AND OTHER MEANS OF FORCE.

[Ron 7]

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From Eighth Army Headquarters (the highest command in Korea) to all US and South Korean units, 3 January 1951:

Last time I checked...Kerry was not in KOREA.

And the war crimes he talks about are more than "Freefire" zones...He mentions burning villages and cutting off ears.

Of course he also said he never did any of that.

Whats the sound of Kerrys political machine running?


Flip-flop...Flip-flop

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

That's why I pointed out this was from Korea. But it shows that the military has a history of ordering it's soldiers to take illegal actions. I brought this up to point out how someone may not know that they are doing something wrong until later.

Burning villages was advocated by the command in Vietnam if they were suspected of aiding the enemy. I don't recall anyone claiming Kerry cut off anyone's ears. I also don't recall Kerry saying he never did any of this stuff. In fact I specifically recall him saying that he did do it, but didn't know it was illegal until after the war and when he found out he exposed it.

[Kennedy 0]

To put it simply, it is the duty of every soldier to disobey unlawful orders. If he really thought they were wrong, he neglected to do his duty.

I have 31 second soundbite of Kerry, I think testifying before congress.

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Yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands other soldiers committed, in that I took part in shootings in freefire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used .50 caliber machine guns which we were granted u...ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people, ah, I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages.

All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions

You don't know how sick I feel after listening to that enough times to get it all in writing.

Oh, and by the way, exactly which part of that is contrary to the laws of war? The only thing I can think of is the burning of villages, but that is not if the village is haboring VC, NVA, or a weapons stash.



and just to reply to the first two points you raised-

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From Eighth Army Headquarters (the highest command in Korea) to all US and South Korean units, 3 January 1951:

This reiterates previous instructions that you have complete authority in your zone to stop all civilian traffic in any direction. Responsibility to place fire on them to include bombing rests with you.

So they were allowed to stop movement of anyone moving in their zones, and fire on those who didn't stop. So what?

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From memo from Col. Turner C. Rogers, U.S. Fifth Air Force deputy for operations, on 25 July 1950:

II.3. The army has requested that we strafe all civilian refugee parties that are noted approaching our positions.

II.4. To date, we have complied with the army request in this request.

Would you prefer enemy troops dressed as refugees be allowed to approach US troop positions?

etc etc etc

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[crzjp20 0]

i think your right on here.

War is hell, and unfortunatly sometime you have to do hard things.

Those civilians would have been warned not to cross into that area, they would have been advised of the risks, and if they choice to do it anyways, well then.....


war is hell folks, simple as that

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[PhillyKev 0]

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To put it simply, it is the duty of every soldier to disobey unlawful orders. If he really thought they were wrong, he neglected to do his duty.

Ok, I'll repeat it again. He didn't know they were wrong. He was given orders to do things that were commonplace and were being done by everyone in the military. He assumed there was nothing illegal about it. AFTER he got out, he found out that those actions violated the Geneva convention and publicly stated so and campaigned to have them stopped.

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Oh, and by the way, exactly which part of that is contrary to the laws of war?

Freefire zones are prohibited by the Geneva convention, as are harassment and interdicction fire.

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So they were allowed to stop movement of anyone moving in their zones, and fire on those who didn't stop. So what?

Article 35
All protected persons who may desire to leave the territory at the outset of, or during a conflict, shall be entitled to do so,

Protected persons are defined as civilian non-combatants.

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Would you prefer enemy troops dressed as refugees be allowed to approach US troop positions?

yes, I'd prefer that over strafing ALL divilian refugee parties.