Cambalectri 0 #26 May 18, 2014 JerryBaumchenHi Cambalectri, Quotesemi-stowless bag (Jerry's ) add more bulk ? I think that any difference is rather insignificant. For the NoStoBag, you eliminate a number of rubber bands ( two are still req'd ) but you do add the two tuck tabs and the pockets that they tuck into. I had my hands on a UPT stowless bag for a number of weeks a year or so ago and I think the same for them. I would think that any 'difference' would be less than the packing technique/ability of the packer. Differences in packing can add or delete more 'bulk' IMO. JerryBaumchen Hi Jerry, Because of the pockets and tuck tabs of the NoStoBag, I thought, at first, it would have help me to add, to augment, a bit the volume inside my container, which has a standard UPT bag ! ( Naturally, I reduced the closing loop ! ) Previously, you designed another stowless bag, I believe, the MagBag ? A nice design which had magnets! Same volume compare to the more recent NoStoBag ? Would you comment to the motive you did away with the magnets...thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #27 May 18, 2014 Hi Cambelecti, Quote Would you comment . . . Sure. 1. I think all main canopy d-bags should be slightly larger than the container that that are going to go into. This will allow easier packing of the canopy into the d-bag, it will not have any negative effect on placing the d-bag into the container, it will allow the canopy-in-the-bag to move around ever-so slightly, filling up all those nooks and crannies in the container. Then when you close the container flaps everything will fit just perfectly. 2. The MagBag was just too much work to make any money on. And those magnets were 'somewhat' expensive. Also, magnets can wear through the bag fabric and fall out ( this has happened to someone else's mag-bag ). When I visited Sandy Reid back in Feb, I tried to talk him out of using magnets, but it looks like he didn't agree with that idea. I guess you can't win them all. And those magnets can d*** well hurt if you ever were to get your fingers in between them. Ask me how I know this. 3. The NoStoBag is built to the customer's dimensions; each one is custom-made. I keep the info & the patterns in the event something gets wrong/incorrect in the process. That enough comment for you? JerryBaumchen PS) Dealers for the NoStoBag: Nicholas Cronin Place Tarnaiae 1 1869 Massongex, Switzerland [email protected] ChutingStar 1349 Old U.S. 41 NW, Suite 105 Marietta, GA 30060-7929 RockSkyMarket 1207 W. Gurler Road Rochelle, IL 61068 Flying High Mfg. Box 2320 Claresholm, AB T0L 0T0 CANADA RockSkyMarket 1207 W. Gurler Road Rochelle, IL 61068 Square One 25819 Jefferson Ave. #140 Murrieta, California 92562 Aero Store 120 North Charlotte Street Pottstown, PA 19464 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cambalectri 0 #28 May 18, 2014 JerryBaumchen Hi Cambelecti, Quote Would you comment . . . Sure. 1. I think all main canopy d-bags should be slightly larger than the container that that are going to go into. This will allow easier packing of the canopy into the d-bag, it will not have any negative effect on placing the d-bag into the container, it will allow the canopy-in-the-bag to move around ever-so slightly, filling up all those nooks and crannies in the container. Then when you close the container flaps everything will fit just perfectly. 2. The MagBag was just too much work to make any money on. And those magnets were 'somewhat' expensive. Also, magnets can wear through the bag fabric and fall out ( this has happened to someone else's mag-bag ). When I visited Sandy Reid back in Feb, I tried to talk him out of using magnets, but it looks like he didn't agree with that idea. I guess you can't win them all. And those magnets can d*** well hurt if you ever were to get your fingers in between them. Ask me how I know this. 3. The NoStoBag is built to the customer's dimensions; each one is custom-made. I keep the info & the patterns in the event something gets wrong/incorrect in the process. That enough comment for you? JerryBaumchen PS) Dealers for the NoStoBag: Nicholas Cronin Place Tarnaiae 1 1869 Massongex, Switzerland [email protected] ChutingStar 1349 Old U.S. 41 NW, Suite 105 Marietta, GA 30060-7929 RockSkyMarket 1207 W. Gurler Road Rochelle, IL 61068 Flying High Mfg. Box 2320 Claresholm, AB T0L 0T0 CANADA RockSkyMarket 1207 W. Gurler Road Rochelle, IL 61068 Square One 25819 Jefferson Ave. #140 Murrieta, California 92562 Aero Store 120 North Charlotte Street Pottstown, PA 19464 Thanks again Jerry, this is exactly the info which I needed, to surely solve my dilemma ! Likewise, I quite agree with your comment that perhaps a magnetic system on a main stowless bag could be possibly, problematic, after a while ! For example, as the main bag is been lift up by the p.c. it may possilby deformed slightly, naturally depending of its size and weight and I believe, magnets are maybe perpendicularly weak !?! Furthermore, do we know the long term effect of a few strong magnets in closed proximately to the AAD inside the container ? I do not have the answer ! Thanks for you time and for the list of dealers for the NoStoBag. Most useful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #29 May 18, 2014 Quote Furthermore, do we know the long term effect of a few strong magnets in closed proximately to the AAD inside the container ? You mean as strong and about as close as the magnets many rigs have on the risercovers? A few centimeters from the magnets you don't feel anything from the magnets, I seriously doubt that if you can't feel the magnets with a nail or something that should be attracted to it, the electronics in the AAD is fine. I also recall Booth saying something about the magnetic risercovers and AADs a few years ago. I could be wrong but I believe it was him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #30 May 18, 2014 HellisQuote Furthermore, do we know the long term effect of a few strong magnets in closed proximately to the AAD inside the container ? You mean as strong and about as close as the magnets many rigs have on the risercovers? A few centimeters from the magnets you don't feel anything from the magnets, I seriously doubt that if you can't feel the magnets with a nail or something that should be attracted to it, the electronics in the AAD is fine. I also recall Booth saying something about the magnetic risercovers and AADs a few years ago. I could be wrong but I believe it was him. There is a small difference though. The magnets in the riser covers are always there, far away from the AAD electronics. The AAD electronic unit in most containers is on the bottom of the reserve tray, isn't it? At least in mine it is there. Meaning that it is very close to the main tray. When you put the bag inside the container the magnets can be momentarily very close to the AAD. I believe it shouldn't be a problem with a properly designed electromagnetic shield, but I am not sure if this is really the case (see Cypres SB http://www.cypres-usa.com/SB_31012013_eng.pdf). If static electricity from packing can become a problem, relatively strong changes in a magnetic field might be a problem too. I'm not saying it is the case, I'm just saying that it might be a possibility. It might be advisable to contact the AAD manufacturers and hear what they have to say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #31 May 18, 2014 Deimian***Quote Furthermore, do we know the long term effect of a few strong magnets in closed proximately to the AAD inside the container ? You mean as strong and about as close as the magnets many rigs have on the risercovers? A few centimeters from the magnets you don't feel anything from the magnets, I seriously doubt that if you can't feel the magnets with a nail or something that should be attracted to it, the electronics in the AAD is fine. I also recall Booth saying something about the magnetic risercovers and AADs a few years ago. I could be wrong but I believe it was him. There is a small difference though. The magnets in the riser covers are always there, far away from the AAD electronics. The AAD electronic unit in most containers is on the bottom of the reserve tray, isn't it? At least in mine it is there. Meaning that it is very close to the main tray. When you put the bag inside the container the magnets can be momentarily very close to the AAD. I believe it shouldn't be a problem with a properly designed electromagnetic shield, but I am not sure if this is really the case (see Cypres SB http://www.cypres-usa.com/SB_31012013_eng.pdf). If static electricity from packing can become a problem, relatively strong changes in a magnetic field might be a problem too. I'm not saying it is the case, I'm just saying that it might be a possibility. It might be advisable to contact the AAD manufacturers and hear what they have to say. The magnetic bag that I have the magnets placed by the BOC/closingflap. That's not very close in my opinion. But you are correct that the risercovers stay in place, if we only talk about one rig. Never seen a packingmat full of rigs, some stacked on top eachoter? Or a trunk full of rigs? I still believe the magnets are "harmless" in normal use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #32 May 18, 2014 Hellis The magnetic bag that I have the magnets placed by the BOC/closingflap. That's not very close in my opinion. But you are correct that the risercovers stay in place, if we only talk about one rig. Never seen a packingmat full of rigs, some stacked on top eachoter? Or a trunk full of rigs? What I meant is that typically you put the bag in the container with the stows/magnets facing the ground, and then you rotate the bag to put it in the final position. While you "drop" the bag into its slot, previous to rotating it to its final position, the magnets will be closer to the bottom of the reserve tray than when it is already packed. Besides that, the bag is a mobile part with respect to the reserve tray, so if you want you can really put the magnets against the bottom of the reserve tray. If you can do it, you might do it accidentally. You can't do that with the magnets in the riser covers, as they are in a fixed position with respect to the reserve tray. Hellis I still believe the magnets are "harmless" in normal use. I believe it too. But I don't know it for sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #33 May 18, 2014 Hi Cambalectri, Quote a magnetic system on a main stowless bag could be possibly, problematic During the R & D process on the MagBag, I spent a lot of time just thinking about the whole concept of keeping the canopy and lines in their respective locations until wanted during the various deployment processes, i.e., the lines in the line pouch & the canopy in the canopy pouch; these are two different concerns. Holding the lines in a line pouch with magnets is quite easy. IMO this system ( keeping the lines in the line pouch ) works quite well based upon the results that I received from the 5 prototype MagBags that I built and sent out to people to test jump. No one mentioned any problems with line dump & and Andre' LeMaire's videos of jumps on a prototype MagBag did not show any line dump at terminal. The last that I knew, Andre' was still using his prototype MagBag and was quite satisfied with it. IMO the biggest problem with "a magnetic system on a main stowless bag" lies with balancing the magnetic forces during two different deployment scenarios: 1. Allowing the canopy to get out of the canopy pouch of the d-bag during hop & pops ( much slower deployment speeds and resultant lower pilot chute pulling forces ) 2. Keeping the canopy in the canopy pouch of the d-bag at terminal ( much higher deployment speeds and resultant higher pilot chute pulling forces ). You need low magnetic forces at #1 because the main pilot chute does not have the pulling power at low speeds as it does at #2, where you need high magnetic forces to ensure that the canopy does not come out during 'snatch'. From what I have read, the LazyBag folks in Belguim seem to have overcome this problem with their design(s). Quite often here on dz.com we have some very interesting discussions on 'line dump' ( when lines 'dump' out of the line pouch or out of the rubber bands at snatch ) and when canopies dump out of the canopy pouch at the wrong time ( which is not 'line dump' ). IMO these are two completely different problems. Does this help? And just for the record: I do not pretend to know all that there is to know about any type of deployment bag(s). I hope to keep on learning as time goes by. That is why I no longer make a MagBag, the NoStoBag is a superior product; but I am biased. JerryBaumchen PS) And I am not concerned about magnets effecting the function of any AAD located inside of the reserve container. Magnetic bags have been used in Europe for a number of years & I have never heard of such a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cambalectri 0 #34 May 19, 2014 JerryBaumchen Hi Cambalectri, Quote a magnetic system on a main stowless bag could be possibly, problematic During the R & D process on the MagBag, I spent a lot of time just thinking about the whole concept of keeping the canopy and lines in their respective locations until wanted during the various deployment processes, i.e., the lines in the line pouch & the canopy in the canopy pouch; these are two different concerns. Holding the lines in a line pouch with magnets is quite easy. IMO this system ( keeping the lines in the line pouch ) works quite well based upon the results that I received from the 5 prototype MagBags that I built and sent out to people to test jump. No one mentioned any problems with line dump & and Andre' LeMaire's videos of jumps on a prototype MagBag did not show any line dump at terminal. The last that I knew, Andre' was still using his prototype MagBag and was quite satisfied with it. IMO the biggest problem with "a magnetic system on a main stowless bag" lies with balancing the magnetic forces during two different deployment scenarios: 1. Allowing the canopy to get out of the canopy pouch of the d-bag during hop & pops ( much slower deployment speeds and resultant lower pilot chute pulling forces ) 2. Keeping the canopy in the canopy pouch of the d-bag at terminal ( much higher deployment speeds and resultant higher pilot chute pulling forces ). You need low magnetic forces at #1 because the main pilot chute does not have the pulling power at low speeds as it does at #2, where you need high magnetic forces to ensure that the canopy does not come out during 'snatch'. From what I have read, the LazyBag folks in Belguim seem to have overcome this problem with their design(s). Quite often here on dz.com we have some very interesting discussions on 'line dump' ( when lines 'dump' out of the line pouch or out of the rubber bands at snatch ) and when canopies dump out of the canopy pouch at the wrong time ( which is not 'line dump' ). IMO these are two completely different problems. Does this help? And just for the record: I do not pretend to know all that there is to know about any type of deployment bag(s). I hope to keep on learning as time goes by. That is why I no longer make a MagBag, the NoStoBag is a superior product; but I am biased. JerryBaumchen PS) And I am not concerned about magnets effecting the function of any AAD located inside of the reserve container. Magnetic bags have been used in Europe for a number of years & I have never heard of such a problem. Great help, Jerry, many thanks again, quite detailed and thorough ! What would be the ideal tension in pounds for the the two closing stows on the NoStoBag ? For example, would a hop n pop or terminal opening alter the way you select the size / strength of the rubber bands ? Coming back to the concern regarding some strong magnets on a stowless bag in the container main tray, I understand that surely the Cypres and Vigil cutters are shielded against electromagnetic and electrostatic disturbances ! As for the Control Units, I do not know, at this time ! I am also aware of the all magnets Compal Lazy Bag... ... great, if it's working for them. And, with the thousand of jumps made on that particular Lazy Bag, it seems effective ! Yet, in 2011 at the PIA, UPT Greg Rau stated that he was not a supporter of a stowless bag with magnets, he seems to prefer a more simple method... in other words, keep it simple ! I suppose, different folks, different viewpoints ! Nonetheless, the stowless bag is without doubt, making headway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #35 May 19, 2014 Hi Cambalectri ( now just kind of name is that? ), QuoteWhat would be the ideal tension in pounds for the the two closing stows on the NoStoBag ? I have no data to offer & I have done any specific testing for this. Occasionally, we do hear of a baglock, but those are few & far between. IMO, the currently available rubber bands seem to work quite nicely in both lo-speed & hi-speed conditions. I would use what you are currently using until such time as they do not work; then go to Plan B. Let's not re-invent the wheel. JerryBaumchen PS) If you would like to get your hands on a demo NoStoBag, send me an email to: jerrybaumchen(at)gmail(dot)com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cambalectri 0 #36 May 19, 2014 JerryBaumchenHi Cambalectri ( now just kind of name is that? ), QuoteWhat would be the ideal tension in pounds for the the two closing stows on the NoStoBag ? I have no data to offer & I have done any specific testing for this. Occasionally, we do hear of a baglock, but those are few & far between. IMO, the currently available rubber bands seem to work quite nicely in both lo-speed & hi-speed conditions. I would use what you are currently using until such time as they do not work; then go to Plan B. Let's not re-invent the wheel. JerryBaumchen PS) If you would like to get your hands on a demo NoStoBag, send me an email to: jerrybaumchen(at)gmail(dot)com Thanks Jerry, sending you an email later tonight... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
