i coulda killed this bastard

[kmcguffee 0]

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if presented with an arguement that is reasonable that contradicts what I have said, will change my point of view.

LOL............that needs to be added to the "Hell will freeze over when.........." poll in the pub.
Hell will freeze over when someone actually changes their mind during a political, religious, or philisophical debate on DZ.com.

I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters.

[SBS 0]

Hell will freeze over when someone actually changes their mind during a political, religious, or philisophical debate on DZ.com.
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Sometimes reason comes from the most unlikely places...
:-)
Steve

[scottbre 0]

Ok here's the problem. Any example I come up with, you will just be able to dismiss by saying, "Well that example is based on sociological values that you have learned, and thus can't be used." The only problem is that you give all these hypotheticals about rape and stealing that simply can't be tested. That is why I was asking for an example of something that society has deemed acceptable, and because of that everyone does it.
In an argument, you can never prove you're right. The best you can do is prove that they are more wrong.

[SBS 0]

a) Just as it takes years to build trust and one lie to break it, I could go on for years with examples, but it would only take one from you to disprove it.
b) When we talk about society, the variations that are introduced to different people will break nearly each individual into their own sort of society, in some cases. There are some that you could generalize, like the amish, for example, or true buddhists, etc. It is not something that can be generalized into Americans, Arabs, Chinese, Blacks, Whites, etc. There are arabs that were born in the US, there are blacks that live in the African Bush, Malibu, and Watts, etc etc etc. Same with Whites, Asians, etc.
Ok, examples, which still have to be hypothetical, because to say otherwise would be to assume that we know the right way, and other things are wrong....
I don't believe that running an airliner into a building is right.
Had I been raised by Osama BinLaden in that region, my sentiments regarding the US and my morals would be different, so it is likely that I would not look down upon him in the same way that I do now.
I don't believe that it is right for children to conveniently disappear when their existance will put my family over it's quota. If I were born and raised in China, I would likely see it as the only option, and thus conveniently lose my child.
If someone looks crosseyed at me, I'll probably look at him funny. I am not going to shoot him. If I were born and raised around gangs, and had been in one all my life, I may just look at that person, shoot him, and then say that he deserved it because he disrespected me or my family.
We are not talking about people doing things that they think are wrong because they are socially acceptible...I am saying that these people would have never looked at these things as wrong because of how they were raised. If we take me as person A and transplant me into another society, that of person B, I will still hold to many of the beliefs that have been ingrained into me by my society. What I am saying is to raise a person A in a person B society will influence who that person becomes, and his morals, religion, etc., and completely change who he/she is. No I would not go into society B, where rape is ok, and feel like it was ok to rape the women. If I had been raised there, though, and had no reason to believe that it was wrong, then what reason would I have not to force myself on someone?
Most all of us, with the rare, rare exception, have an urge to have sex with another person. When they say no, what stops us, other than the commonly held belief that rape is wrong?
Steve

[scottbre 0]

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Most all of us, with the rare, rare exception, have an urge to have sex with another person. When they say no, what stops us, other than the commonly held belief that rape is wrong?

Even if rape were "socially acceptable," what would stop me would be my empathy with the person who does not want to have sex with me. Regardless of what my desires might be, if she didn't want to be with me, then there would zero pleasure gained from my forcing myself on her. Understanding how she felt would severely mute or obliterate any desire I might have had to be with her (regardless of society saying that it is ok). Sex is more complicated than just a physical act between two people and in order to have good satisfying sex, the emotions and desires of the two involved need to mesh at some level. This won't happen with rape, even if society says rape is fine, and thus I would not rape her. If you care about your fellow human beings then what that one person feels about what you do will be more important in the moment than what has been deemed allowable by society.
Another example: Our society has deemed it appropriate to report crimes that you find out about to the proper authorities. However, that doesn't mean that if a close friend came to me and told me of a crime that he committed, that I would then report this to the police. Doesn't mean I wouldn't but it doesn't mean I would. Once again, emotions and relationships that are completely independent of society come into play.
So there are two examples. In an argument, you can never prove you're right. The best you can do is prove that they are more wrong.

[SBS 0]

Even if rape were "socially acceptable," what would stop me would be my empathy with the person who
does not want to have sex with me. Regardless of what my desires might be, if she didn't want to be
with me, then there would zero pleasure gained from my forcing myself on her. Understanding how she
felt would severely mute or obliterate any desire I might have had to be with her (regardless of society
saying that it is ok). Sex is more complicated than just a physical act between two people and in order
to have good satisfying sex, the emotions and desires of the two involved need to mesh at some level.
This won't happen with rape, even if society says rape is fine, and thus I would not rape her. If you
care about your fellow human beings then what that one person feels about what you do will be more
important in the moment than what has been deemed allowable by society.
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Again, you have been raised with certain beliefs about sex. Sex is not the same from person to person, and not the same from culture to culture. I wouldn't find sexual satisfaction from a child, but there are those who do, and pay for 12 year old hookers in Thailand.
In this statement, you're basically saying that empathy towards the opposite sex has nothing to do with culture and upbringing, and even if you had been raised completely differently, the empathy would stay. I think that has been proven absolutely untrue by the general sentiment towards women in the middle east for the past centuries, or women in African tribes, etc.
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Another example: Our society has deemed it appropriate to report crimes that you find out about to the
proper authorities. However, that doesn't mean that if a close friend came to me and told me of a crime
that he committed, that I would then report this to the police. Doesn't mean I wouldn't but it doesn't
mean I would. Once again, emotions and relationships that are completely independent of society come
into play.
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a) social acceptibility does not necessarily correspond directly to the laws of the land.
b) In making a decision to report or not report a crime, you are making the decision of which is more important in your set of values, to remain true to a friend, or to regard the laws as having more importance in this case. Although you are supposed to report any crime, the severity of the crime weighed along side the value that you place on the friendship will determine whether you follow through with what the law states you must do. I, personally, think that how you regard the law is going to be determined by where and how you were raised, as in an example of "shooting someone is ok because he stole from me". Personally, if someone steals from me, I'm upset, but I'm sure as hell not going to shoot him.
Ellie Nessler was a lady who lived not far from me in the mountains between Yosemite and Lake Tahoe when I was growing up. She shot the man who was on trial for molesting her son. Now, what do you think the sentiment towards her is, when people hear this story. The law says she was wrong, but how many people do you think said, "I would have done the same thing" or at least "I understand, I would have wanted to do the same thing". Now, if we didn't live in a place where everyone was raised to believe that killing was wrong, and everyone should get due process, how many child molesters do you think would even make it as far as the courtroom?
You can respect the law but make the decision that you are not going to follow it because you believe that your ideals are more important. Again, I don't think this is a biological issue as much as one of where, when, and how you were raised.
Steve

[scottbre 0]

*Sigh* Fine. Even though I told you ahead of time that that was what your response would be I chose to give the examples anyway. You used the "all things being equal prepose," and so was I. All things being equal, even if rape was socially acceptable I still wouldn't do it, and it would have nothing to do with my penis size. I feel like this discussion is going in circles now, because you are saying things that I already expected you to say. I don't know how else to put it, so I come back to what I originally said.
I think you're sociological theory is wrong. You can disagree with me if you like, as I am sure you do. But society can't develop originally from society. Somewhere it starts with individuals who have their own views that are simply based on them thinking things through and making decisions based on that for themselves. Based on how I understand your version of social conditioning, there would never be changes in how society views anything.
In an argument, you can never prove you're right. The best you can do is prove that they are more wrong.

[SBS 0]

even if rape was socially acceptable I still wouldn't do it, and it would have nothing to do with my penis size.
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I still don't see how you can make a statement about who you would be if you were raised in a completely different time and place. I certainly don't know who I would be. Hell, I didn't think I would go beyond my first jump the week before I did AFF. Here I am 4 years later, and it's my entire life. There can be drastic changes in our lives from one day to the next based on what happens to us...if you were to erase all of our experiences and start fresh completely differently, there isn't really much chance that you would be recognizable as being the same person at all.
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I feel like this discussion is going in circles now, because you are saying things that I already expected you to say.
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As you have also said things that I expected you to say. That doesn't mean that either of us are wrong for saying them. You had already presumed that I would be able to find some sort of social impact that would lead to any example you would find. Does that mean that I am wrong, or does that mean that you can't come up with an example that you can prove to me would disprove the theory? Sounds more to me like the second.
As you had already made the CYA statement that I would just say that your opinions were formed by society, I tried to explain my reasoning, rather than a simple "you're wrong".
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But society can't develop originally from society.
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But there are aspects to society that without the existence of the society, would not exist themselves.
What do you think is more likely when time began, that a man met a woman for the first time and said "I respect you", or that two people met, figured out that they could help eachother to survive through performing different operations in a household, and reproducing, and thus formed a union? What are the chances that the first human men got horny, wanted sex when the women didn't, then forced the women into relations, figured out that they got pissed off, it was detrimental to the society as a whole because it effected the work that the others did towards the betterment of the society, and thus they said, "hmmm we should have their consent first"?
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Somewhere it starts with individuals who have their own views that are simply based on them thinking things through and making decisions based on that for themselves.
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And how long ago was this? To say that the first human was not influenced by society is reasonable, but in order for the species to continue a society was formed and began influencing its members.
Imagine this...a society is formed...it starts off where people don't pay for anything, until one day, a guy gets a wild hair up his ass because he felt like he did more work in the tribe than the other guy, and deserved just compensation...i.e.-the better piece of meat at the table that night. So, money is created to create some sort of equality, and thus, people now have to pay for what we take to make things fair.
I don't want to draw out the examples for everything...but apply it to what we have been talking about. It's a lot easier to beleive than the idea that we were just born knowing "we shouldn't rape women", "we shoudln't steal", etc. etc. etc.
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Based on how I understand your version of social conditioning, there would never be changes in how society views anything.
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It most certainly does change. It just does not change overnight. It changes little by little, it evolves. Even if there is revolution, it may change a society superficially, but it takes years for the members of the society to catch up with it. For example, even though our laws say that blacks are equal to whites, there are still those who will never see them as equals, and will give birth and raise those who don't see them as equals, etc. etc. etc. It's like putting a drop of oil in water, stirring it, and watching it gradually change into water itsself.
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In an argument, you can never prove you're right. The best you can do is prove that they are more wrong.
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True to a point...depends on the arguement.
I have to get to class, I have a test. :-)
Good night.
Steve
PS - Even though it was circular at times, I really have enjoyed the day's discussion. Thank you.

[skyhawk 2]

um "rape" has been an acceptible part of human society for a large proportion of our existance, you just have to go back a few hundred yrs, if that and the "civilised" world thought, a womans role is , cook, clean, look after the kids and bear children. It was a fact of life on and off for thousands of years in a variety of different cultures. Only 100 or so years ago you could grab any girl you want and have sex with them, cause that is there job, 50 years ago it was wrong for women to enjoy sex. Is it right, no but it is not inbuilt to not rape,
Infact rape only came into being when the concept of it appeared wrong, befor it wasnt bad it was just the way it was and always had been.
also question, are organised marriges rape? or more specificly pressured rape, sure they give permission but only cause they have to
Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit