kallend 1,651
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kallend 1,651
QuoteQuoteHe would have been just wrong if he had said, we think we know where they are, but he didn't say that, he said he knew.
Rumsfield's sources told him it was there, so he took it as fact. If anything, Rumsfield is guilty of putting too much faith into the sources.
Look at it from this perspective: If Rumsfield knew the intel was false, and that the WMDs weren't really there, would he have made such a statement knowing it would be brought out as false later on?
Hardly. The man would have to be an idiot to have intentionally lied in making that statement. Despite his fateful phraseology, it was still just a mistake.
I like the "idiot" choice myself.
Now, you have absolutely no idea what the actual intelligence provided to the administration was. All you know is what they have released.
I suspect they made a calculated risk based on sketchy and conflicting intelligence and the strong desire that it be true 'cos they were itching for a fight, dismissed the conflicting part when they made the case to Congress, and were caught out when their version turned out to be bogus.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
pdj6p 0
Kerry was on meet the press just a few weeks ago and said that he believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and not just because the current administration said so. He said (I will paraphrase here because I don't have the exact quote in front of me but I'm sure the transcripts are there if you really want to look them up.) that he whent to the cia, fbi, those that were in charge of intellegence when clinton was in office and others and all of them were convinced of the existance of wmd's in Iraq.
So it seems to me that it is an intellegence problem or kerry was in on the lie from the begining.
Death is so permanant, and I'm just not ready for that kind of committment.
So it seems to me that it is an intellegence problem or kerry was in on the lie from the begining.
Death is so permanant, and I'm just not ready for that kind of committment.
skydyvr 0
QuoteI suspect they made a calculated risk based on sketchy and conflicting intelligence and the strong desire that it be true 'cos they were itching for a fight, dismissed the conflicting part when they made the case to Congress, and were caught out when their version turned out to be bogus.
Actually, I don't completely disagree with you there.
However, I don't believe the intel was quite as "sketchy and conflicting" as you wish it were.
. . =(_8^(1)
kallend 1,651
QuoteQuoteI suspect they made a calculated risk based on sketchy and conflicting intelligence and the strong desire that it be true 'cos they were itching for a fight, dismissed the conflicting part when they made the case to Congress, and were caught out when their version turned out to be bogus.
Actually, I don't completely disagree with you there.
However, I don't believe the intel was quite as "sketchy and conflicting" as you wish it were.
We do know what Hans Blix and the UN inspectors reported. And we do know that the Bush administration bad-mouthed them at every opportunity. We know that Powell went to the UN with "intel" that he wouldn't show Blix ahead of time. And we now know that Powell admits it was no good.
In fact, we now know that Blix was right and Bush was wrong. The one time Bush chose to disregard trhe CIA was the one time they were right, if we are to believe the apologists.
I think there's a simpler explanation, one that doesn't defy the rules of probability. The administration lied.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 1,651
QuoteKerry was on meet the press just a few weeks ago and said that he believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and not just because the current administration said so. He said (I will paraphrase here because I don't have the exact quote in front of me but I'm sure the transcripts are there if you really want to look them up.) that he whent to the cia, fbi, those that were in charge of intellegence when clinton was in office and others and all of them were convinced of the existance of wmd's in Iraq.
So it seems to me that it is an intellegence problem or kerry was in on the lie from the begining.
Surmise all you want. The director of the CIA and NSA and the other acronym agencies report to the President, and they only reveal what the administration allows them to reveal.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
I think there's a simpler explanation, one that doesn't defy the rules of probability. The administration lied.
It would make a nice neat package if it was true. The only problem with your theory is that Bush didn't lie.
never pull low......unless you are
skydyvr 0
QuoteI think there's a simpler explanation, one that doesn't defy the rules of probability. The administration lied.
I think your theory does defy the rules of probability. If Bush and his staff were intentionally untruthful, they would have to have realized that this would eventually become known. Sorry, it just doesn't make sense that they would go down this road knowingly.
. . =(_8^(1)
kallend 1,651
QuoteQuoteI think there's a simpler explanation, one that doesn't defy the rules of probability. The administration lied.
I think your theory does defy the rules of probability. If Bush and his staff were intentionally untruthful, they would have to have realized that this would eventually become known. Sorry, it just doesn't make sense that they would go down this road knowingly.
A bit earlier I gave 7 examples where Bush or one of his cronies made a statement that later turned out to be untrue or contradicted by his actions. The probability that he was not lying in at least one case is very small. Incidentally, I could have provided more examples.
Regardless, being WRONG in seven important items is strong evidence of total incompetance.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The latest
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004072203,00.html
John Kerry girl tells all
Affair ... Alex Polier
From BRIAN FLYNN
in New York
THE beauty said to have had a fling with presidential hopeful John Kerry has recorded a bombshell tell-all interview.
Journalist Alex Polier taped a talk with a US TV network at Christmas.
The former Washington intern, 27, told all about an alleged fling with the 60-year-old super-rich senator in spring 2001.
Hopeful ... John Kerry
The channel is sitting on the tape until it has enough evidence to back her story. If the sex claims are true, they would shatter his White House hopes. Kerry, a married dad of two, has denied the fling. But Alex told pals she fled to Kenya on his suggestion.
One TV source said: “She wants to tell her story. She has talked at length about her relationship with Kerry. But no one is believing her.”
Kerry was front-runner for the Democratic nomination to take on George Bush in November. His hopes were hit as hints of a scandal emerged.
and:
http://www.nationaudio.com/News/DailyNation/Today/News/mainNews1602200453.html
Kerry intern hiding in Kenya
By NATION Reporter
and Agencies
The young intern at the centre of a furore involving United States presidential hopeful John Kerry is hiding out in Kenya.
Alex Polier, 24, has been in the country for the past few weeks visiting her fiancee, Mr Yaron Schwartzman, who works with FilmStudios, along Nairobi's Ngong Road.
Ms Polier, who could end Senator John Kerry's hopes of becoming the next president of the United States, is alleged to have had a two-year affair with the front-runner for the Democratic nomination.
"This is not going to go away," one American friend of Ms Polier said yesterday. "What actually happened is much nastier than is being reported."
The allegations come at a crucial time for the senator. Polls showed him leading Mr Bush by 52 per cent to 42 per cent, and aides will be anxious to see if the apparent scandal affects his standing among voters.
Ms Polier, a former intern who also spent some time in 1998 doing work experience at the Houses of Parliament in London, is in Kenya staying with Mr Schwartzman.
It was not immediately clear what Mr Schwartzman does at FilmStudios. Efforts to contact the family home in the leafy suburb of Lavington were fruitless.
Miss Polier and her fiance were believed to be hiding at the Nairobi home of Mr Schwartzman's parents, who moved to Kenya from Israel.
Mr Joseph Schwartzman is the chairman of the H Young group of companies. His wife, Hannah, is described by friends to be a devout Jew who was hoping to see her future daughter-in-law convert to Judaism before the wedding ceremony planned for some time later in the year.
The Nation has established, however, that the couple were students together at Columbia University in New York.
Both have refused to make any comment on her alleged links with Senator Kerry, who is married to Teresa Heinz Kerry, heiress to a food empire.
Senator Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran dubbed the new JFK, has vehemently denied any relationship with Miss Polier and shrugged off allegations that he had a two-year affair with her from 2001. He said: "I just deny it categorically. It's rumour. It's untrue. Period."
Mr Kerry flatly denied swirling rumours about an extramarital affair, assuring backers that his campaign was not vulnerable to a sudden sex scandal.
Mr Kerry, married once before, was something of a playboy after his divorce, dating starlets Morgan Fairchild and Catherine Oxenberg.
Mrs Heinz-Kerry, who has been a fixture on the campaign trail, is no shrinking violet. She once told a writer for Elle magazine that she would jokingly warn her first husband that if he ever strayed, "I'll maim you. Not kill you, just maim you."
Mr Kerry, 60, has won 12 out of the 14 Democratic primaries and has looked all but certain to seal the nomination to take on President George W. Bush in November's elections.
His aides have blamed a dirty tricks campaign for bringing the allegations about Miss Polier into the public eye; they first surfaced last week on a right-wing internet site, the Drudge Report, which famously first broke the news of Bill Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky.
Ms Polier's parents, Terry and Donna, from Malvern, Pennsylvania, added fuel to the fire by claiming that Mr Kerry did pursue their daughter.
Said Mr Polier: "I think he's a sleazeball. I did wonder if she didn't get that feeling herself. He's not the sort of guy I'd choose to be with my daughter. John Kerry called my daughter and invited her to be on his re-election committee. She talked to him and decided against it."
The Drudge website also quoted retired Gen Wesley Clark, one of Mr Kerry's rivals for the nomination, as having told journalists off the record: "Kerry will implode over an intern issue."
Mr Clark later dropped out of the race and endorsed Mr Kerry.
Miss Polier, a journalist who once worked for Associated Press, apparently met the senator as she was beginning her media career.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004072203,00.html
John Kerry girl tells all
Affair ... Alex Polier
From BRIAN FLYNN
in New York
THE beauty said to have had a fling with presidential hopeful John Kerry has recorded a bombshell tell-all interview.
Journalist Alex Polier taped a talk with a US TV network at Christmas.
The former Washington intern, 27, told all about an alleged fling with the 60-year-old super-rich senator in spring 2001.
Hopeful ... John Kerry
The channel is sitting on the tape until it has enough evidence to back her story. If the sex claims are true, they would shatter his White House hopes. Kerry, a married dad of two, has denied the fling. But Alex told pals she fled to Kenya on his suggestion.
One TV source said: “She wants to tell her story. She has talked at length about her relationship with Kerry. But no one is believing her.”
Kerry was front-runner for the Democratic nomination to take on George Bush in November. His hopes were hit as hints of a scandal emerged.
and:
http://www.nationaudio.com/News/DailyNation/Today/News/mainNews1602200453.html
Kerry intern hiding in Kenya
By NATION Reporter
and Agencies
The young intern at the centre of a furore involving United States presidential hopeful John Kerry is hiding out in Kenya.
Alex Polier, 24, has been in the country for the past few weeks visiting her fiancee, Mr Yaron Schwartzman, who works with FilmStudios, along Nairobi's Ngong Road.
Ms Polier, who could end Senator John Kerry's hopes of becoming the next president of the United States, is alleged to have had a two-year affair with the front-runner for the Democratic nomination.
"This is not going to go away," one American friend of Ms Polier said yesterday. "What actually happened is much nastier than is being reported."
The allegations come at a crucial time for the senator. Polls showed him leading Mr Bush by 52 per cent to 42 per cent, and aides will be anxious to see if the apparent scandal affects his standing among voters.
Ms Polier, a former intern who also spent some time in 1998 doing work experience at the Houses of Parliament in London, is in Kenya staying with Mr Schwartzman.
It was not immediately clear what Mr Schwartzman does at FilmStudios. Efforts to contact the family home in the leafy suburb of Lavington were fruitless.
Miss Polier and her fiance were believed to be hiding at the Nairobi home of Mr Schwartzman's parents, who moved to Kenya from Israel.
Mr Joseph Schwartzman is the chairman of the H Young group of companies. His wife, Hannah, is described by friends to be a devout Jew who was hoping to see her future daughter-in-law convert to Judaism before the wedding ceremony planned for some time later in the year.
The Nation has established, however, that the couple were students together at Columbia University in New York.
Both have refused to make any comment on her alleged links with Senator Kerry, who is married to Teresa Heinz Kerry, heiress to a food empire.
Senator Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran dubbed the new JFK, has vehemently denied any relationship with Miss Polier and shrugged off allegations that he had a two-year affair with her from 2001. He said: "I just deny it categorically. It's rumour. It's untrue. Period."
Mr Kerry flatly denied swirling rumours about an extramarital affair, assuring backers that his campaign was not vulnerable to a sudden sex scandal.
Mr Kerry, married once before, was something of a playboy after his divorce, dating starlets Morgan Fairchild and Catherine Oxenberg.
Mrs Heinz-Kerry, who has been a fixture on the campaign trail, is no shrinking violet. She once told a writer for Elle magazine that she would jokingly warn her first husband that if he ever strayed, "I'll maim you. Not kill you, just maim you."
Mr Kerry, 60, has won 12 out of the 14 Democratic primaries and has looked all but certain to seal the nomination to take on President George W. Bush in November's elections.
His aides have blamed a dirty tricks campaign for bringing the allegations about Miss Polier into the public eye; they first surfaced last week on a right-wing internet site, the Drudge Report, which famously first broke the news of Bill Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky.
Ms Polier's parents, Terry and Donna, from Malvern, Pennsylvania, added fuel to the fire by claiming that Mr Kerry did pursue their daughter.
Said Mr Polier: "I think he's a sleazeball. I did wonder if she didn't get that feeling herself. He's not the sort of guy I'd choose to be with my daughter. John Kerry called my daughter and invited her to be on his re-election committee. She talked to him and decided against it."
The Drudge website also quoted retired Gen Wesley Clark, one of Mr Kerry's rivals for the nomination, as having told journalists off the record: "Kerry will implode over an intern issue."
Mr Clark later dropped out of the race and endorsed Mr Kerry.
Miss Polier, a journalist who once worked for Associated Press, apparently met the senator as she was beginning her media career.
b1jercat 0
QuoteThe latest
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004072203,00.html
John Kerry girl tells all
Affair ... Alex Polier
From BRIAN FLYNN
in New York
THE beauty said to have had a fling with presidential hopeful John Kerry has recorded a bombshell tell-all interview.
Journalist Alex Polier taped a talk with a US TV network at Christmas.
The former Washington intern, 27, told all about an alleged fling with the 60-year-old super-rich senator in spring 2001.
Hopeful ... John Kerry
The channel is sitting on the tape until it has enough evidence to back her story. If the sex claims are true, they would shatter his White House hopes. Kerry, a married dad of two, has denied the fling. But Alex told pals she fled to Kenya on his suggestion.
One TV source said: “She wants to tell her story. She has talked at length about her relationship with Kerry. But no one is believing her.”
Kerry was front-runner for the Democratic nomination to take on George Bush in November. His hopes were hit as hints of a scandal emerged.
and:
http://www.nationaudio.com/News/DailyNation/Today/News/mainNews1602200453.html
Kerry intern hiding in Kenya
By NATION Reporter
and Agencies
The young intern at the centre of a furore involving United States presidential hopeful John Kerry is hiding out in Kenya.
Alex Polier, 24, has been in the country for the past few weeks visiting her fiancee, Mr Yaron Schwartzman, who works with FilmStudios, along Nairobi's Ngong Road.
Ms Polier, who could end Senator John Kerry's hopes of becoming the next president of the United States, is alleged to have had a two-year affair with the front-runner for the Democratic nomination.
"This is not going to go away," one American friend of Ms Polier said yesterday. "What actually happened is much nastier than is being reported."
The allegations come at a crucial time for the senator. Polls showed him leading Mr Bush by 52 per cent to 42 per cent, and aides will be anxious to see if the apparent scandal affects his standing among voters.
Ms Polier, a former intern who also spent some time in 1998 doing work experience at the Houses of Parliament in London, is in Kenya staying with Mr Schwartzman.
It was not immediately clear what Mr Schwartzman does at FilmStudios. Efforts to contact the family home in the leafy suburb of Lavington were fruitless.
Miss Polier and her fiance were believed to be hiding at the Nairobi home of Mr Schwartzman's parents, who moved to Kenya from Israel.
Mr Joseph Schwartzman is the chairman of the H Young group of companies. His wife, Hannah, is described by friends to be a devout Jew who was hoping to see her future daughter-in-law convert to Judaism before the wedding ceremony planned for some time later in the year.
The Nation has established, however, that the couple were students together at Columbia University in New York.
Both have refused to make any comment on her alleged links with Senator Kerry, who is married to Teresa Heinz Kerry, heiress to a food empire.
Senator Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran dubbed the new JFK, has vehemently denied any relationship with Miss Polier and shrugged off allegations that he had a two-year affair with her from 2001. He said: "I just deny it categorically. It's rumour. It's untrue. Period."
Mr Kerry flatly denied swirling rumours about an extramarital affair, assuring backers that his campaign was not vulnerable to a sudden sex scandal.
Mr Kerry, married once before, was something of a playboy after his divorce, dating starlets Morgan Fairchild and Catherine Oxenberg.
Mrs Heinz-Kerry, who has been a fixture on the campaign trail, is no shrinking violet. She once told a writer for Elle magazine that she would jokingly warn her first husband that if he ever strayed, "I'll maim you. Not kill you, just maim you."
Mr Kerry, 60, has won 12 out of the 14 Democratic primaries and has looked all but certain to seal the nomination to take on President George W. Bush in November's elections.
His aides have blamed a dirty tricks campaign for bringing the allegations about Miss Polier into the public eye; they first surfaced last week on a right-wing internet site, the Drudge Report, which famously first broke the news of Bill Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky.
Ms Polier's parents, Terry and Donna, from Malvern, Pennsylvania, added fuel to the fire by claiming that Mr Kerry did pursue their daughter.
Said Mr Polier: "I think he's a sleazeball. I did wonder if she didn't get that feeling herself. He's not the sort of guy I'd choose to be with my daughter. John Kerry called my daughter and invited her to be on his re-election committee. She talked to him and decided against it."
The Drudge website also quoted retired Gen Wesley Clark, one of Mr Kerry's rivals for the nomination, as having told journalists off the record: "Kerry will implode over an intern issue."
Mr Clark later dropped out of the race and endorsed Mr Kerry.
Miss Polier, a journalist who once worked for Associated Press, apparently met the senator as she was beginning her media career.
The discussion I saw on Fox News today pegged your story as an outright lie to discredit Kerry and indicated the Druge report was nothing more than speculation.
The whole point being to put some pressure on Kerry and see if maybe he'll fold up.
But just for fun lets assume its true, DILLIGAF.
blue skies
Jerry
kallend 1,651
QuoteQuoteQuoteIsn't that horse dead YET!!!!
Yes. however, it seems the esteemed prof is beating it, despite it's putrescence, and various crime scene analysts' drooling all over the forensic evidence of a dead equine.
Ah well....
Does anyone know anything about the following (and if you have links, that'd be good):
~Kerry's early dismissal from the service?
~Kerry's position on terrorism?
~Kerry's committee affiliations?
~Kerry's affiliation with Skull and Bones?
Just curious.
Ciels-
Michele
Instead of making "clever" remarks, how about giving one of your customary logical responses:
A president makes a statement to the nation that the federal budget deficit will be small and short-term.
That president then sends to Congress a proposal for a significant reduction in federal tax revenues (which Congress passes). At the same time he greatly increases the size of the federal bureaucracy and proposes budgets with greatly increased spending to pay for all that stuff (which Congress also passes).
Do you not consider that this president then has primary responsibility if the outcome of his actions is an increase in the federal deficit to record levels into the forseeable future?
And was not his initial statement (small, short-lived...) deliberately misleading in the light of his subsequent actions?
Hey Michele - still waiting for your answer. I know you're out there.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteFurther, unless we were in his place and had gone through his experiences, who the fuck are we to question it?
Paul,
I was in his place and I went through his experiences. He is a dirt bag and I put him in the same category at Hanoi Jane.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
Back on topic here. Why isn't the press all over this? I remenber when George H. Bush was accused with even flimsier evidence od having an extra-marital affair back in 1992. The media was all over it. Joe Conason even wrote an article for Spy Magazine entitled "1000 Reasons Not to Vote for George H. Bush" number 1 on the list was "He cheats on his wife"
Newt Gingrich, Bob Livingstone etc. seems as if anytime it's a Republican, the media is all over it, but very little with Kerry. Nope, no media bias here.
Newt Gingrich, Bob Livingstone etc. seems as if anytime it's a Republican, the media is all over it, but very little with Kerry. Nope, no media bias here.
benny 0
Actually, they were talking about it on "Reliable Sources" yesterday and said the reason they haven't been talking about it (it actually has been in a few media outlets) is that to this point it's completely unsubstantiated. And it may have been a dream but I could have sworn I heard somewhere last night that it had been found to be a complete and total sham.
Never go to a DZ strip show.
Never go to a DZ strip show.
QuoteActually, they were talking about it on "Reliable Sources" yesterday and said the reason they haven't been talking about it (it actually has been in a few media outlets) is that to this point it's completely unsubstantiated. And it may have been a dream but I could have sworn I heard somewhere last night that it had been found to be a complete and total sham.
You may have missed my point. The allegations against GHB were totally bogus, but that didn't stop the media from jumping all over it. Different standard when it's a Republican isn't it?
kallend 1,651
QuoteQuoteActually, they were talking about it on "Reliable Sources" yesterday and said the reason they haven't been talking about it (it actually has been in a few media outlets) is that to this point it's completely unsubstantiated. And it may have been a dream but I could have sworn I heard somewhere last night that it had been found to be a complete and total sham.
You may have missed my point. The allegations against GHB were totally bogus, but that didn't stop the media from jumping all over it. Different standard when it's a Republican isn't it?
GHWB was President of the USA at the time. Kerry is still just a Senator.
IIRC, the press was all over Clinton when he was President of the USA.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Ron 7
QuoteI suspect they made a calculated risk based on sketchy and conflicting intelligence and the strong desire that it be true 'cos they were itching for a fight, dismissed the conflicting part when they made the case to Congress, and were caught out when their version turned out to be bogus
Again they didn't lie...they might have made a mistake.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
So the administration dismisses the CIA intelligence when it's correct, but uses it in all cases when it turns out to be wrong. What an amazing stroke of bad luck!
A simpler explanation is that they lied.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
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