Skyhook compatibility

[drewcarp 0]

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I just really like the extra safety of the skyhook especially since I'm still so green.

All the more reason to spend your money on jumps, coaching and tunnel time. The piece of equipment that most often fails a skydiver is the grey squishy bit between the ears. You'll have a hard time finding many, if any, incidents that have been prevented by a skyhook or that may have been averted by having a skyhook. You'll find lots of incidents due to skydivers making bad choices, flying beyond their abilities and other human factors. If safety is your goal, your money would be better spent improving your knowledge and skills than on a piece of equipment that has a 1 in a million chance of being a deciding factor in an incident - unless perhaps you're a millionaire and money is no option.

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3915091;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Maybe this one that just happened is why he wants one?

or this one

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3823178;search_string=zhills;#3823178

A shitload of people go in at line stretch following a cutaway. I saw the above happen this March after my 6th jump and yes a functioning skyhook would have saved him, but so would of bigger squarer canopy or deploying 300 feet higher or cutting away 300 feet higher.

The chance of you cutaway much below 1k is low and a HORRIBLE Idea even with a Skyhook but if it ever happens the chance of a Skyhook coming in handy is pretty high. Certainly no the end all be all of safety but it could save your life some day.

If you are anything like me you will want one for a few more jumps and then start to worry about the added complexity and possible failure modes of a mis-rigged skyhook.

If you keep skydiving you will have to cut away. Most likely at an altitude that you don't need a skyhook. Do you trust the new technology of a skyhook to work correctly and not inhibit the cutaway and reserve launch even when you don't need it too?

Part of me thinks the fewer things to go wrong between cutting away and having a reserve over my head the better. i'll use my brain to make sure there is enough altitude for the "basic and proven" system to work properly. On the other hand the incident threads above and many like it tell me that jumpers better than me have made that bet and lost.

Not trying to steer you one way or the other, I don't know shit and haven't even made up my mind yet but I have recently started to realize there is something to be said about simplicity and proven technology (standard RSL or your left hand) and thats after wanting as skyhook since I heard about them 2 years ago.

If skyhooks continue to work properly for people for another few years and prove themselves without killing too many people then yes I will want one but I am a little weary of anything attached to my last chance to live that hasn't been around and used successfully a few thousand times. I don't want to discover a failure mode if that makes sense.

Plus it's damn near impossible to find a used rig that will fit a 210 and has a skyhook and the wait is 20 months on a new Vector or Jav (which I don't like the sound of the retrofit on)

But I will say they are remarkable devices and do get a reserve inflated faster than anything else when working properly and I'm sure many people made the same argument about complexity when the RSL came out and RSL's have saved a lot of people and proven themselves to be reliable just as the skyhook probably will.

I think after typing all that I talked myself into wanting a skyhook again, damn.

Does anyone know of any incidents where a skyhook failed to work or contributed to a fatality?

[pilotdave 0]

Geez after reading this thread I want to disconnect my skyhook, remove my cypres, and throw away my helmet. Safety devices sound worthless! I am learning that I would have been better off spending all that money on jumping and learning to never need a safety device! I already have dirty laundry packed into my reserve container so I don't have to worry about that. Just kidding, it's clean laundry.

Problem is that history has shown you can't train out the need for these things, when you need them. I'm not saying a skyhook is an absolute necessity in a rig, but it's a much better feature to want in a first rig than thick padding or tie die. How many people choose Mirage for their cool ads and badass looks? It's nice to see some people shop for safety features.

Dave

[diablopilot 2]

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All the more reason to spend your money on jumps, coaching and tunnel time. The piece of equipment that most often fails a skydiver is the grey squishy bit between the ears. You'll have a hard time finding many, if any, incidents that have been prevented by a skyhook or that may have been averted by having a skyhook. You'll find lots of incidents due to skydivers making bad choices, flying beyond their abilities and other human factors. If safety is your goal, your money would be better spent improving your knowledge and skills than on a piece of equipment that has a 1 in a million chance of being a deciding factor in an incident - unless perhaps you're a millionaire and money is no option.

The same could be said for and AAD, but I still suggest people jump an AAD. Any skydiver that had a main cutaway and died with an uninflated (or underinflated) reserve could have been saved with a SkyHook, and I have heard of this plenty of times.

Mark Klingelhoefer

The thing you fail to mention is the vast majority of those situations could have been prevented through proper emergency procedure execution and/or the use of a standard RSL which doesn't have some of the risks associated with the Skyhook.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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In how many instances have reserves severely twisted because of unstable body position at deployment with or without a standard RSL?

1) The RSL does not cause the linetwists, the jumpers poor body position and overwhelming desire to get "belly to earth" instead of remaining oriented correctly into the relative wind is what causes the line twists.

2) How many injuries/fatalities have we seen from this problem? Now compare that to how many we've seen from the use of an RSL. I know which way that data leads me.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Deyan 31]

OK,this seems to be another Skyhook discussion.
We all know that Skyhook is faster than the normal RSL(when it works,because sometimes just doesn't work and nobody can tell why).The big question here is:"How much faster".Are we talking about 200-300 ft vertical difference ,or more like 100ft.
I found 2 videos on youtube.Both intentional cutaways.One with skyhook and one with RSL. Well,doesn't look like a big difference,does it?

Skyhook cutaway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy35JMUCcAw&feature=related

RSL cutaway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w4OFyizivE

I would like to see side by side cutaway with both,Skyhook and RSL. The same size reserve,the same packing technique,the same or close to the same WL. I don't think that the difference will be more than 100-150 ft. But who knows?

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[theonlyski 3]

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Geez after reading this thread I want to disconnect my skyhook, remove my cypres, and throw away my helmet. Safety devices sound worthless! I am learning that I would have been better off spending all that money on jumping and learning to never need a safety device! I already have dirty laundry packed into my reserve container so I don't have to worry about that. Just kidding, it's clean laundry.

Problem is that history has shown you can't train out the need for these things, when you need them. I'm not saying a skyhook is an absolute necessity in a rig, but it's a much better feature to want in a first rig than thick padding or tie die. How many people choose Mirage for their cool ads and badass looks? It's nice to see some people shop for safety features.

Dave

"Nothing makes them drop faster then a man in a Mirage"

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[theonlyski 3]

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OK,this seems to be another Skyhook discussion.
We all know that Skyhook is faster than the normal RSL(when it works,because sometimes just doesn't work and nobody can tell why).The big question here is:"How much faster".Are we talking about 200-300 ft vertical difference ,or more like 100ft.
I found 2 videos on youtube.Both intentional cutaways.One with skyhook and one with RSL. Well,doesn't look like a big difference,does it?

Skyhook cutaway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy35JMUCcAw&feature=related

RSL cutaway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w4OFyizivE

I would like to see side by side cutaway with both,Skyhook and RSL. The same size reserve,the same packing technique,the same or close to the same WL. I don't think that the difference will be more than 100-150 ft. But who knows?

Blue skies

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Throttlebender 0]

Good discussion guys. Thanks for your views.

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[davelepka 4]

The problem with your thinking is that you're not taking into account 'the rules' If you follow 'the rules' you won't need a Skyhook or an RSL. The rules are that you break off from a freefall skydive with enough time to get to clear airspace, deploy your main and indentify either a good canopy or a malfunction before your hard deck, and initiate and complete your EPs immediately in the case of a malfunction. Not doing this, and any incident that results is not a failure or shortcoming of the gear, it's a shortcoming of the jumper.

You cannot look at a Skyhook and think about the 300ft cutaway 'stunt' they did to promote the thing. Cutting away at anything below your hard deck is not an option, and as soon as you begin to entertain it as an option due to the presence of a Skyhook in your rig, you go from using one of Bill Booths inventions, to acting out another one of his inventions.

One of Booth's laws states that for every step you take in making skydiving safer, jumpers will take an equal step in the opposite direction and take additional risks, offsetting any improvement in safety.

The way you prevent yourself from fullfilling Booth's law is to stick to your procedures regardless of the gear you are jumping. Act as if the Skyhook is not present, and when it activates, enjoy the extra time and altitude under your reserve.

Keeping this in mind, you can see how the trivial difference in extraction time between a Skyhook an an RSL is moot. You're under your reserve at 1400 ft with one, and 1300ft with the other.

As soon as you start to split hairs on the level of 100 or 150 ft difference in deployment time, you have already begun down the slippery slope to Booth's law. The presence of a Skyhook, RSL, or AAD should hold no basis on the way you conducdt yourself in the sky. Plan as if they are not there, and try your hardest not to use them.

Many suggest a mandatory grounding for a period of time after an AAD fire. I'm not 100% sure I agree with that, but I understand the sentiment. It's an error of significant proportions to fire an AAD, but it can happen and people do get sucked down low from time to time. Things happen fast in freefall.

However, if a jumper were to cutaway at such an altitude than an RSL would not save them, but their Skyhook does, I would reccomend that jumper hang up their gear for good. For starters, the amount of luck required for that to occur is staggering. At that point, you are literally 100 ft away from death and still alive by the grace of god. Additionally, for a jumper to make the error of riding a canopy, good or bad, down to below 300 or 400ft, and then to perform a cutaway (what would be required for a Skyhook 'save') is inexcusable, and that person has no business in the sport of skydiving.

If you want to be that guy, get the Skyhook and think about how much quicker it is than an RSL. One day that though might jump out at you at the worst possible time, and it could cost you your life.

[drewcarp 0]

I agree with everything you said. That does not change the fact that no matter how many times you may tell yourself you will not cut away low, you still might. Like you said things happen fast in freefall and for a newer jumper 2000 feet isn't all that different from 700 especially in a panic after something unexpected happens like a collision or a collapse or throwing yourself into line twists and the one thing that is ingrained into jumpers heads from day one is that if there is an emergency LR LL PR PL. I know its wrong and everything you do in the air should follow some analysis but the fact remains lots of people have just cut away too low and bounced and people will continue to do so, no one is immune people with 5000 jumps have done it and so have people with 50. The Skyhook will save a few, not all but a few. Betting on it by lowering your hard deck would be retarted but you can bet people will, even if it is just in the back of their minds.

Dave I respect your experience and all the time and effort you put into this forum. I'm in no place at all to have much of an opinion with 35 jumps but I do enjoy the discussion and since I will be making the choice to Skyhook or not to Skyhook soon I appreciate you input on my elementary analysis on the subject.

The real lesson to take away is, if you get a Skyhook DONT CUT AWAY ANY LOWER THAN YOU WOULD WITHOUT ONE! Don't even entertain the thought of it.

I'll save it for another thread but lets hope the OP doesn't get word of the reserve container lock issues that have been discussed as of late...Stay tuned another container lock thread coming soon, haha.

[danielcroft 2]

Don't forget that it's pretty hard to lose your freebag with a skyhook.

I wanted a skyhook when I bought my rig too but ended up getting an Infinity that I'm very happy with (thanks guys!). I'd still like to have one but, for me, it falls into the category of devices that are clearly better (in my mind) but not substantially better.

The funny thing is that I've always thought that it's the high performance jumpers who should be using a skyhook, cleaner, faster opening from (likely) more violent cutaways going to a smaller reserve. But that's just IMO of course.

Find a rig that fits you, make sure you have an AAD and at least an RSL, you're likely to be downsizing out of your first rig in a couple of years anyway and at that point you could look at investing in a new V3 or whatever else is out there at that stage with a MARD system in it.

[johnmatrix 21]

But couldn't there could eventually be a situation where for one reason or another, after having followed all the rules, you might still end up with a bad canopy under your hard deck... and if that did occur, depending on the situation, you might elect to take your chances with the Skyhook rather than risk deploying the reserve into the bad main?

I'm not wanting to nominate particular altitudes, but surely if the same hypothetical situation was encountered with an RSL instead of a Skyhook, you could have less options available to you?

Just to be clear - I have a Skyhook, and my plan is to cut away well above my hard deck if I have to. I'm just wondering what others thoughts are and certainly have no plans to lower my hard deck based on advice received in an internet forum. ;)

[JackC1 0]

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But couldn't there could eventually be a situation where for one reason or another, after having followed all the rules, you might still end up with a bad canopy under your hard deck... and if that did occur, depending on the situation, you might elect to take your chances with the Skyhook rather than risk deploying the reserve into the bad main?

Sure. Two scenarios I can immediately think of, you're at 500ft and:
a) someone swoops through your canopy ripping it open or
b) you've done an overly aggressive S turn and managed to induce spinning line twists.

At this point you have 3 options.
1) ride in whatever bag of crap you've got.
2) dump your reserve into your main hoping there will be enough fabric out to save your ass
3) chop and pull silver.

Hard decks are good things to have and you should stick to them, but if you find yourself deep in the shit you do whatever you can to save your own life.

I have a Skyhook on my rig and it doesn't make me take any more risks than when I didn't even have an RSL. It's there for the occasions I hope I never find myself in and train hard to avoid.

[BKR 0]

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But couldn't there could eventually be a situation where for one reason or another, after having followed all the rules, you might still end up with a bad canopy under your hard deck... and if that did occur, depending on the situation, you might elect to take your chances with the Skyhook rather than risk deploying the reserve into the bad main?

I'm not wanting to nominate particular altitudes, but surely if the same hypothetical situation was encountered with an RSL instead of a Skyhook, you could have less options available to you?

Just to be clear - I have a Skyhook, and my plan is to cut away well above my hard deck if I have to. I'm just wondering what others thoughts are and certainly have no plans to lower my hard deck based on advice received in an internet forum. ;)

Think about a horse shoe situation, take your time to do so and let me know which system will give you more chance to save yourself, good question, no??

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[voilsb 1]

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Don't forget that it's pretty hard to lose your freebag with a skyhook.

That's really the only reason I want a Skyhook. I lost my pilot chute and freebag on my reserve ride. Expensive jump, that was ...

Brian

[johnmatrix 21]

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Think about a horse shoe situation, take your time to do so and let me know which system will give you more chance to save yourself, good question, no??

OK, I've been thinking but I'm not sure that I see what you're saying... is it that perhaps, if you cutaway in that instance (without disconnecting the RSL/Skyhook) then with a Skyhook, the reserve bridle being pulled out almost simultaneously with the pin, could somehow inhibit the reserve PC launch?
So then with the main still attached to you at some point you could then end up with a further horseshoe with the reserve or a PC in tow or something? Shouldn't the combined drag of all that crap (with the reserve bridle as well) pull the freebag off and allow the reserve to deploy?

[BKR 0]

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Think about a horse shoe situation, take your time to do so and let me know which system will give you more chance to save yourself, good question, no??

OK, I've been thinking but I'm not sure that I see what you're saying... is it that perhaps, if you cutaway in that instance (without disconnecting the RSL/Skyhook) then with a Skyhook, the reserve bridle being pulled out almost simultaneously with the pin, could somehow inhibit the reserve PC launch?
So then with the main still attached to you at some point you could then end up with a further horseshoe with the reserve or a PC in tow or something? Shouldn't the combined drag of all that crap (with the reserve bridle as well) pull the freebag off and allow the reserve to deploy?

You got it. Skyhook = opening the reserve container and everything still connected. RSL= opening the reserve container and that's all. So with RSL you have a chance that the reserve deployment could go through the whole mess. With the Skyhook you are in a very deeper mess.

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Think about a horse shoe situation, take your time to do so and let me know which system will give you more chance to save yourself, good question, no??

OK, I've been thinking but I'm not sure that I see what you're saying... is it that perhaps, if you cutaway in that instance (without disconnecting the RSL/Skyhook) then with a Skyhook, the reserve bridle being pulled out almost simultaneously with the pin, could somehow inhibit the reserve PC launch?
So then with the main still attached to you at some point you could then end up with a further horseshoe with the reserve or a PC in tow or something? Shouldn't the combined drag of all that crap (with the reserve bridle as well) pull the freebag off and allow the reserve to deploy?

You got it. Skyhook = opening the reserve container and everything still connected. RSL= opening the reserve container and that's all. So with RSL you have a chance that the reserve deployment could go through the whole mess. With the Skyhook you are in a very deeper mess.

Personally, I'd pack my pilot chute so as to most likely avoid a horseshoe (& a pilot chute in tow, too).

(Admittedly, just like I'd cut away above my hard deck, instead of finding the need to rely on a Skyhook. But still.)

Signatures are the new black.

[johnmatrix 21]

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You got it. Skyhook = opening the reserve container and everything still connected. RSL= opening the reserve container and that's all. So with RSL you have a chance that the reserve deployment could go through the whole mess. With the Skyhook you are in a very deeper mess.

That's interesting. That makes me wonder if disconnecting the RSL before cutting away in that situation is a viable option. I guess that depends on how high you are and how quickly you think you could do it.

[jurgencamps 0]

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Personally, I'd pack my pilot chute so as to most likely avoid a horseshoe (& a pilot chute in tow, too).

(Admittedly, just like I'd cut away above my hard deck, instead of finding the need to rely on a Skyhook. But still.)

A horse shoe with your PC/some lines around your feet, hand, camera, ringsight ...

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Personally, I'd pack my pilot chute so as to most likely avoid a horseshoe (& a pilot chute in tow, too).

(Admittedly, just like I'd cut away above my hard deck, instead of finding the need to rely on a Skyhook. But still.)

A horse shoe with your PC/some lines around your feet, hand, camera, ringsight ...

Hence, the words "most likely."

Signatures are the new black.