Anyone load a Strong Z-PO at 2.1

[elton01 0]

Hey all,

Anyone here load a Strong Z-PO 150 with about 310 lbs. If so, give me your feedback on flight handling. I got rid of a Heatwave 150 two years ago and am looking to put together a cheap rig for fun. Won't be swooping, just straight in and putting it down. I know it's older, but I'm just wondering if the flight envelope is acceptable at that loading, or if it becomes a rocket with no flare available at the end because it's just not able to fly that much s&*t on the bottom.

Thanks

[pchapman 261]

You might get some cheap shots about weight that don't address your question!

Sounds like the Heatwave 150 worked at that loading. I knew someone who regularly jumped a Sabre 107 at 2.1 and it landed no problem. But the question is whether the Z-Po, in that class of early '90s Sabre-style canopies, will also behave well at 2.1...

[davelepka 4]

Just some food for thought - have you been jumping for the last two years, or have been out of the sport (just a guess, but you sold your canopy).

To that end, a WL of 2.1 is extremely high for an uncurrent jumper, and pretty high for just a weekend warrior. Being current and sharp is a huge part of being safe at higher WL.

Moving on, if you're not intending to swoop, why are you aiming at such a high WL? Surely a more moderate loading would serve you better when you're trying to just 'put it down', and of course would give you added range (which leads to added options) if you should find yourself a little far out, or you just dump low.

I'll just mention the fact that people do jump with no winds. You can figure out the downside to that one.

Let's also talk about the Heatwave. Not one of the greatest canopies made, but a quick turning eliptical for sure. Eliptical canopies generally produce more lift than a square of the same size, so you may not get the same level of performance from the Z-po you got the from the Heatwave.

Of course, your performance may have been better two years ago as well, so there's always that to think about.

I'll just wrap up by saying that if you're 310 lbs, maybe overloading some gutter gear isn't the best plan.

Ok, I'll add this too - I put about 500 jumps on a Sabre (similar to the Z-po) 107 a while back, At the time the WL would have been 1.8, and it flew like a barn door falling out of the sky. I then moved to a Stiletto 107 (same size but eliptical) and liked it so much I went through three of them over 3500 jumps, with my WL steadily increasing to 2.1, and even at that loading it was better than the Sabre at 1.8.

By the way, if this canopy choice has anything to do with what fits in your old rig, you're criteria for canopy selection is way off base. Good luck out there.

[RiggerLee 61]

That you would do this at all... visualise raise of eye brow. That you would do this on a straight in approach... see a disperate search for a video cammera.

Dude, just the fact that you think that you would be safer doing this straight in rather then swooping tells me all I need to know.

To any one out there at or neer the same drop zone. Please film this so we may all laugh with you. Gold, video gold.

Just out of curreosity What's in your reserve?

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[elton01 0]

Well RiggerLee, your limited use of the English language and spelling tell me all I need to know, and the short answer is this, some punk who thinks he's the next answer to Jesus on the dropzone. Good luck with that.

Davelepka, you're questions and answers show that you actually have some experience with this and are interested in helping me keep my fat a$$ safe. Thank you for your concern, and I will probably pass on this canopy after having thought about what you've said. The whole reason I came on was to get this sort of insight from those who are current and may have a better idea than me what could be suitable. Having always jumped a 150 for over 13 years, you forget that they are not always a 1 to 1 substitution, and I don't feel heavy. To answer your question, yes, I've been out now for two years. My wife and I had the little one and I wanted to take a break. I most certainly am not current, and will be jumping some student gear for the next 10-15 jumps just to get the feeling back, and to see what I've forgotton.

RiggerLee, if you haven't got constructive things to add, or do not realize that someone ahead of you said all the right things, crawl back in your hole and leave the grown ups to talk shop.

[AggieDave 6]

What exactly are you looking for in what you want your canopy to do?

Are you wanting fast turns, a steep decent or what?

A wingloading in the neighborhood of 2:1 is unusual for people who are not swooping in some capacity.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[elton01 0]

Hi Aggie,

Not really looking for anything in particular, what I was after was nothing more than a report from someone who had flown the Z-PO at a wingloading of 2.1 safely. I would like to get their perspective on such things as you're asking me (turn rate, altitude loss in hard turns, glide rates, opening characteristics, straight in approaches in wind, no wind straight in approaches, front riser pressures, swoop characteristics (if I ever wanted to do such a thing after regaining some of the old skills). In short, I was hoping to see WHAT could be done under this particular canopy at a high wing load). This was the whole drive behind getting informed people to tell me what I could expect from this canopy in that load scenario.
After Dave asked some good questions I came to the realization that having been out for two years, as much as I think I still have the skills that I did when I was actively jumping, I may in fact find that I've lost some of them to the degree it could prove unsafe.
I was hoping that this canopy at high wingloads could still be flown in safely without necessarily performing a high speed swoop to get the drive for an effective flare. My Heatwave 150 could be flown in and landed very nicely with no wind-straight in approaches. I merely wondered if the Z-PO could do the same. My goal was to find a canopy that could be flown at a higher wingloading and still be flown conservatively if required. A contradiction in terms to be sure, but not necessarily unacheviable, but not with this canopy. I've got my answer, and will look at getting something either newer, or bigger.

[AggieDave 6]

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and will look at getting something either newer, or bigge

Right, that's why I was asking. If we knew what you were looking for, then maybe we could make some suggestions for a canopy that you would enjoy. One that would also be appropriate for your needs and abilities.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davelepka 4]

Look man, I know that Lee was poking fun at your situation, but he's got a good point down at the core of what he's saying.

I'm not sure whay anyone would be doing jumping at 2.1 if they're not a swooper, and they're not jumping a swooping canopy. I'm willing to admit that I make some trade-offs in my skydiving because I jump a canopy at that loading. In reality, if I wasn't swooping, I would notch the WL back a few points for sure.

For a non-swooper, I can't see why anyone would want a WL much past 1.5 or 1.6. I know that on a few occasions where I had to land off, I would have really liked a few extra sqaure feet up there. Things did turn out fine, but I have 5000 jumps, and am very current and have been jumping 100 sq ft canopies for over ten years. But even with that experience, I clearly saw the use for more canopy.

I think a 190 size canopy would be a better choice for you to shoot for. I also think that 10 or 15 jumps on a 280 student canopy, followed by a few on a 240, and then a 190 would be a smart approach. I am 100% sure that your skills from two years ago are a far cry from what they were. I see the difference in my skills after four months off for the winter, and then I see how much sharper I am at the end of the season. Currency is everything.

Keep this n mind, if you took time off to have a baby, you're returning to skydiving with a different life circumstance. At 2.1, it only takes a slight mistake to generate an impact sufficient to snap a femur. Consider the time off of work, the medical bills, and the strain on your wife taking care of you and a baby.

As much as I've skirted the issue, you are a big boy. Flying straight-in on a no wind day at 2.1 will produce a gorund speed much higher than you can run. Your chances for injury are much higher because fo this. Even at 1.5 you may be flying faster than you can run, but the margin will be less, and if you take spill, it will be that much easier to take.

I'm not sure what else to say. You certainly have some time and jumps at the same WL you're talking about, but keep in mind that just becasue you got away with it then, doesn't mean it was the right choice or a good idea. Factor in the new addition to your family, and maybe you can see that this is a new chapter in your skydiving career, and you need to take a fresh approach to things.

[elton01 0]

What I'm looking for is something that will give me

1. A decent opening (Think 7 cell soft ..don't mind if I have to roll the nose to acheive).
2. Can be harness steered during openings without the need to go to rears all the time (Heatwave was horrible for this)
3. When in brakes or on rears a good glide (For the long spot)
4. Can be flown straight in, or if wanting to push it, a long recovery arc so that I can do a high 180 progressive front riser turn and not worry about coming out before I'm ready. (This will be done once I'm current and comfortable with my skills)
5. Long control range (from about ears to middle of waist).
6. Strong flare in the bottom of the control range. (Right up until the feet touch down)
7. Quick turns with high AOA (angle of attack) OK (hand in hand with long recovery arc).

The problem I face Aggie is that I know what canopies would work that are brand new in the market. The Pulse, Fusion, Pilot, Crossfire etc. etc. are all great canopies that would fit the bill. But as someone else put it, I'm shopping in the gutter range. No new canopy for me. I look at what's out there and try to find something that will get me back in the air for the least amount of moolah. Most people want the new gear, I'm looking for someone else's cast offs. Most of the time the sub $600 market is exactly that. The canopies are damaged, need lines immediately, or are of questionable airworthiness. What I need is someone who has a canopy with about 300-400 jumps and is downsizing from a 170 Stilleto or that level and is going to a Velocity or Katana, and just wants to unload a decent canopy. That was the case with the Z-PO. It is in very good condition and is completely jump ready. It's also in the sub $300 dollar range. BUT, not worth my life. So, I'll keep looking and hope to find that elusive Stilletto, Crossfire or other light elliptical in the 170-190 range that someone just wants to get out the door. I'll also make sure to come back here and get opinions on whatever I'm looking at. Which leads me to my next question. What is your feelings on the Vengeance 170?

[elton01 0]

I don't disagree with what you're saying at all Dave, which is why I'm passing on this and will look for a 170-190 range canopy. I'll also try to get in the canopy progression that you recommended so that it isn't a shock to realize I don't have the skill set that I thought I did.
I may have snapped at Lee for his response, but in all retrospect, I dont' think I was wrong in doing so. If he had taken the approach you had or Aggie, I would have been quite happy to have listened to him. I don't mind constructive criticism, it helps someone get past issues and could possible save them from making an error which could prove fatal.
What I don't like is condescension from some wanna be skygod who was probably shitting his diapers about the time I did my first jump out the back of a C-130. I'm not a skygod, hell, I'm probably not even a good jumper by a lot of peoples standards, but I'm not a newbie and the fact that I do inquire and appreciate the response of my fellow jumpers does indicate that I'm not reckless or lacking common sense. Much unlike Lee's response. I don't know if you're a friend of Lee's or not. If so, sorry to have offended you, and I do appreciate the advice both you and Aggie have offered.

[AggieDave 6]

The Vengence was a great canopy, I put a decent number of jumps on a 170 and a 150 a few years ago. The downside is that when they open off heading, they dive HARD. Beyond that, they were an absolute blast to fly.

Understand that I'm also a big boy, not quite to your standards, but I loaded the 170 at 1.7 and a 150 at 1.9. I also used to jump a Heatwave 170, so I understand where you're coming from.

Crossfire2's have been on the market for a long time (in the skydiving sense) and you can pick them up used for similar prices you're looking for. I had a XF2 (Crossfire2) 149 that I sold for $800 a couple of years ago, although that price was with the understanding it needed a lineset. So if you look, those deals are out there.

So what I'm taking is that you want something that flies like a fighter jet, but you can land like a Piper Cub. I can dig it, a lot of people are looking for similar setups. The Katana opens like a dream, but requires some attention to keep a heading, same with the XF2.

Something I personally found were that the higher performance 9-cells out there (XF2, Katana, etc) would load up to 1.9-ish on the bigger sizes and still retain some really good flight characteristics. The more intermediate canopies (Sabre2's, Pilots, etc) tended to taper off more at the 1.7 range. I know people will argue until their blue in the face how their Sabre2 107 loaded at 4:1 rocked, but I'm talking about my personal experience.

If you enjoyed your old Heatwave, then you could probably find a Stiletto 170 for a reasonable price with some life left in it. You may even enjoy a Nitro. It opens OK, is fairly zippy, but it has a short recovery arc and is well mannered on landing.

This is said with the understanding that you may even want to look a little larger than 170, a 190 might suit your needs better. Also, now that your coming back to the sport, could I recommend that you spend a little time with a canopy coach and has out some "reminder training?"

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[elton01 0]

Thanks for the recommendations Aggie. I do have a line on a Vengeance 170, which is why I asked.
I am going to do the canopy progression that Davelapeka had recommeded, and I will get a canopy coach to go over the finer points with me as you have suggested.
I was going to do a number of jumps on the student gear just to get myself re-aquainted with the sport,but it does make more sense to try and drop sizes progressively, rather than 25 jumps on a 280, than down to a 170-190. The worst thing is that I know better. I would be the first one to tell somone to take downsizing slowly, but I don't even take my own advice. One nice thing about the weight, I fly quite stable

[airtwardo 6]

I'd agree with what everyone else is saying in regard to your opting for something larger...

I have a Lotta jumps on pretty much all sizes of Z-Po's (150, 170, 190 & 210) and although they are a good middle of the road canopy, you don't want to load them @ 2:1.

Not at all what they were designed for and you really gotta be on top of it to drive them safe at the parameters you mentioned.

I use a 190 @ 1:8 sometimes for demos...it's a bit 'gamey' to say the least!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[lilchief 0]

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I know people will argue until their blue in the face how their Sabre2 107 loaded at 4:1 rocked, but I'm talking about my personal experience.

..u did what???? how the hell did that thing open and fly? I was considering jumping a sabre2 97 which would put me @ 2.31 just for the fun of it. But I thought it would be unstable or break apart and kill me.

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

..u did what???? how the hell did that thing open and fly? I was considering jumping a sabre2 97 which would put me @ 2.31 just for the fun of it. But I thought it would be unstable or break apart and kill me

I was exaggerating for the example. I have flown a Sabre2 loaded in the 2.1+ range and thought the performance dropped off drastically compared to the 1.7 range. However, some jumpers will argue until their blue in the face that their Sabre2 loaded similarly flies great. The wingloading was stretched for my point in the previous post, that's why I choose such an off the wall wingloading number.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lilchief 0]

ah, okey!

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

The wingloading was stretched for my point in the previous post, that's why I choose such an off the wall wingloading number.

I figured you were just jumping in your regular work clothes with your 'tool' belt!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~