Jump track question

[wrespess 0]

Since i have a pro track that i use to upload my jumps to a pc, do i still need to document my jumps in a log book to get future certifications?

[councilman24 36]

Yes,

You need signatures by the pilot or another licensed jumper on the jump for numbers. By a jumper on the jump for performance requirements. The protrack doesn't measure landing accuracy yet.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[wrespess 0]

I thouhgt about that too... but the jump track program shows something called a digital signature and your able to put in details about the jump as well. Does the digital signature not count... the pro-track was on the plane and does have more reliable info about the jump than anyone else on the load.

[Armour666 0]

yes but it dosn't know if it was you or some one eils jumping with the protrack

SO this one time at band camp.....

"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

[CygnusX-1 42]

How does my (paper) log book know if it was me or someone else doing the jump that I wrote about?

[wrespess 0]

According to the SIMS a human must sign it... but i don't see why. I log all the information asked for on my jump track program.

Back to Section 3-1 Contents

1. Skydives offered as evidence of qualification must have been:


a. made in accordance with the USPA requirements in effect at the time of the jump

b. legibly recorded in chronological order in an appropriate log that contains the following information:


(1) jump number

(2) date

(3) location

(4) exit altitude

(5) freefall length (time)

(6) type of jump (formation skydiving, freeflying, canopy formation, style, etc.)

(7) landing distance from the target

(8) equipment used

(9) verifying signature

2. Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

3. Jumps to meet skill requirements must be signed by a USPA Instructor, Instructor Examiner, Safety & Training Advisor, or a member of the USPA Board of Directors.

[NWFlyer 2]

Fact is, no one is going to make you log your jumps in a paper logbook. You can bitch and moan about it all you want, but this is the reality of the situation:

1) If you want to get additional licenses, you will need to show the person who is signing off on your license the logged AND SIGNED jumps. Your ProTrack will record freefall time, but it's not going to record your accuracy landings for your B & C licenses. It's not going to record which jumps were night jumps for your D license. It doesn't know a 2-point 8-way from a solo jump. You may put them all in your jump track program, but they're not signed jumps. How exactly are you going to get a "digital signature" anyway?

2) There are many dropzones that won't ever look at your logbook when you try to manifest. There are probably just as many that will, and if you don't have an up-to-date, signed logbook, you won't get a chance to jump there. Again, it's your choice to log or not, but if you ever want to travel anywhere else, it makes it a lot easier if you log. In some cases, it will make the difference between being allowed to jump or not.

3) Someday, maybe, you'll think it's fun to look back at that logbook and those signatures and the silly notes people write in it or the silly pictures they draw or the way you described the jump. Someday you might think it's really cool that not only did you get to jump with one of the legends of the sport, you got him/her to sign your logbook. Someday, you'll look at a signature and say "Damn, I miss him/her."

And yeah, sometimes logging is just a pain. But I'm glad I do it.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[stimpy4242 0]

I have to disagree with everyone saying it must be signed in ink for it to count. This is not true, think about all the other serious professions out there who have readily accepted digital signatures. Medical records are nearly all signed digitally and now we are talking about a persons medical history including things such as allergies and medications. While I am sure there is some debate among skydivers about who has the best accuracy, I am quite confident that accuracy among medical records supercedes it. While giving someone a skydiving license that may allow them to participate in a jump that would end up in their fatality, it is far more likely that screwing up a persons medications and allergies is going to kill them much quicker. So while the SIM states a signature it does not state a handwritten signature and as already pointed out digital signatures have been widely accepted. I am sure it is only a matter of time that the next altimeter has a touch screen to sign on or simply entering a jumpers license number will suffice. Lets be proactive and make things easier not duplicate efforts. In fact duplicate records often lead to mistakes such as logging the incorrect information between the jump 576839 in jumptrack and how you wrote out jump 576839 in your logbook.

Oh I also would like to add how often I have seen in my limited time in the sport, logbooks signed off on whose information was inaccurate. Such as people writing landing within 10m of landing center when they landed off by 300 feet. But it gets signed. So what is the difference if it were recorded in the notes section of the jumptrack as well?

Jump at The Skydivin' Place
http://www.skydivepa-md.com

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

I have to disagree with everyone saying it must be signed in ink for it to count.

I'm not saying that it has to be in ink. Personally, I don't give a shit if it's in ink, pencil, crayon, or digital.

But the reality is that if you show up at certain DZs (including some very large, popular, "destination" DZs) with only your Protrack or a printout of JumpTrack data, you will not be allowed to jump.

It doesn't matter how you or I interpret the SIM; it matters how the DZ you are going to jump at (or the person reviewing your records for licenses and ratings) interprets the SIM. You're absolutely right, logbooks can be incredibly inaccurate, and some or all of the information in it could be falsified, including the signatures. Feel free to make that argument at manifest at some DZs - you still won't be jumping.

It's very possible the industry will start to change, and that skydivers may start to effect that change. The first step would be to get it specifically spelled out the SIM that electronic signatures are acceptable. A DZ is still under no obligation to accept them. They could tell you that your logbook has to be etched into stone tablets or you won't jump there and that's their right as a business.

(And if you want to carry out the health care argument - do you know how long it took for digital signatures to be considered safe and acceptable in the health care industry? Do you know how many health care providers are still using paper medical records because they believe them to be more "safe" and "accurate"? Change is slow ...)

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[stimpy4242 0]

I was not trying to suggest that the healthcare signatures came over night, but just that they came as with many professions it is becoming a standard. And while I will agree they are using "paper" medical records, the majority of them are printed from online trends and tracking. And they are generally digitally signed. Ever seen the notes that have been copied, you can hardly read those things its absurd. Well anyway, I agree the change needs to come in the SIM and that is what I was actually getting to. I think that might be a good change for the next version.

Jump at The Skydivin' Place
http://www.skydivepa-md.com

[SWATcop 0]

Neither are really fool proof. I could sit down with a pen and give myself an extra 100 jumps in about 20 min if I wanted.

Kevin

Muff Brother #4041
Team Dirty Sanchez #467