Argus AAD misfire

[willyskycam 0]

In Netherlands a test with the AAD Argus showed that the device fired at a normal decent. Also the cutter didn't cut the loop complete.
SAme thing happend a weekend later when Andy Grauwels took an Argus in his jumpsuit to test. At a normal decent with a 270° turn, the unit with was placed in Swoop mode fired.
PLease read the report of these test.
Netherlands and France have already grounded the Argus.

[dragon2 0]

Eh Willy, read the other thread in Gear and Rigging. Just ONE small manufacturer in France had banned the Argus, and that on the report by ONE rigger from The Netherlands, who performed a "test" on his own that no-one else (INCLUDING the Dutch skydiving autorities who are the only ones who can ban anything) have yet indorced. The Argus is certainly NOT banned in The Netherlands.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mjosparky 3]

And who might you be?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skydivepete 0]

Is this the Willy Boeykens sponsored by Vigil who had a msifire in Thailand wearing "special lense goggles"??

Have you seen their own statement on the Vigil misfires?

BTW I phoned Spa and it was a test and not in Swoop.

Maybe Vigil should start doing some testing with all those incidents.

Pete

PS I "Googled" a bit and Andy Grauwels is a member of Haya Busa sponsored by Cypres. Hmm.

[USPA 0]

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In Netherlands a test with the AAD Argus showed that the device fired at a normal decent.

Wrong, read the report

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Also the cutter didn't cut the loop complete.

Test is barely conclusive on this point, experiment was fundamently flawed, also see comment below

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SAme thing happend a weekend later when Andy Grauwels took an Argus in his jumpsuit to test

Sources? Circumstances? Production version? Data?

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At a normal decent with a 270° turn, the unit with was placed in Swoop mode fired.

Sources? Circumstances? Production version? Data?
On Jo Oosterveers homeplay it was set on standaard.

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PLease read the report of these test.

I did and was shocked and amazed how poor testing was done.

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Netherlands and France have already grounded the Argus.

So very wrong, only 1 small manufactorer in france has grounded argus in his rig, because of this test (only done by Jo oosterveer) The only authority in The Netherlands KNVvL has publicly stated it has nothing to do with this report. Also although it is very dificult to be conclusive because of the way Jo likes to write his little reports, it looks like the dutch rigger society VvV does not endorse this report.

So now we have a report which isn't endorsed by any governing association, poorly writen by 1 man, with loosy experimental data and very strange conclusions. On top of this the "test" (if you can even call it a test) was most probably done on test-units not avaible to the public (never sold).

But since you have even missed a "sticky-thread" surrounding this issue, we should most probably not even take you serious.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[skydiverton2 0]

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Eh Willy, read the other thread in Gear and Rigging. Just ONE small manufacturer in France had banned the Argus, and that on the report by ONE rigger from The Netherlands, who performed a "test" on his own that no-one else (INCLUDING the Dutch skydiving autorities who are the only ones who can ban anything) have yet indorced. The Argus is certainly NOT banned in The Netherlands.

Not banned, but I just recieved an e-mail from the dutch KNVvL regarding the ARGUS.
Only allowed to use in solo-rigs used by C & D licence.
All others, including tandemrigs -> NOT ALLOWED.
(Sorry text is in dutch)

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[dragon2 0]

Yes but this is not in response to these "tests". All new AAD's will be treated this way in the future, after the Vigil mishaps at Texel. Hmmm the report does say it is in response to mishaps with Argus, but AFAIK, this rule was being created before this anyway.

Seems a good rule, to me. Too bad they cannot (will not) make the same rule for Vigil, since some tandem and student rigs already have Vigils installed.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[gjhdiver 0]

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In Netherlands a test with the AAD Argus showed that the device fired at a normal decent. Also the cutter didn't cut the loop complete.
SAme thing happend a weekend later when Andy Grauwels took an Argus in his jumpsuit to test. At a normal decent with a 270° turn, the unit with was placed in Swoop mode fired.
PLease read the report of these test.
Netherlands and France have already grounded the Argus.

Utter BS I'm afraid Willy.

The guy who did this test set up the Argus to fail by deliberately testing it outside it's design parameters. The Dutch Asscociation have released an official report saying that the testing was bogus, and that the Argus is OK for use in the Netherlands.

IfI was a suspicious person, I'd say there is a conerted effort by interested parties to bury the Argus. AFAIK, it's perfectly fine.

[mjosparky 3]

I don't know if this helps or hurts.

VEILIGHEIDSBULLETIN Department Parachutespringen Jozef Israëlsplein 8.,2596 ASHES, The Hague, tel.: 070-3143600, fax: 070-3243900 e-mail: [email protected], Internet site: www.parachute.nl replace VB 2006-05: N.v.t. Concern:
Argus AAD, fabricated by the firma Aviacom SA. Problem:

Bulletins concerning possible incidents/occur with these new AAD.

Solution: The use of the ARGUS AAD has been reported to more closely only permitted for solospringuitrustingen which are used c - and d d-brevet holders. Implementation: N.v.t.

Note: After worldwide in use take of the ARGUS AAD a number of bulletins concerning possible incidents/occur there, he who, after consultation with the manufacturer, have conducted to the decision for these AAD provisionally for to preserve to the more to experience springers. THE ARGUS AAD cannot be also used to more closely reported in tandemuitrustingen. Also serves for building in and use of the ARGUS AAD in a harnas/container, is examined if the concerning manufacturer has against that no objection.

Sending: AB, EC/tc Riggers holders of a fold competence members V.v.V. instructors secretariats clubs i.a.a. redactie SP, Internet site want receive you VB's in the future more rapidly? Mail then your e-mail address to HBP: [email protected]. you receive then in the continuation the VB's by e-mail.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

If you are unwilling to identify yourself, your post lacks any credibility.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Liemberg 0]

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2596 ASHES,

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust...
2596 AS however is a dutch zipcode...

Babelfish does have its limitations... ("maar lang niet slecht jochie...")
-----------------
SAFETY BULLETIN
Replaces: Not applicable
Concerns: Argus AAD fabricated by Aviacom SA
Problem: Reports about possible incidents with this new AAD
Solution: The use of Argus AAD is until further notice only allowed in solo parachuting equipment in use by C and D certified skydivers.
Execution: Not applicable
Note: After the worldwide putting into use of the ARGUS AAD there have been a number of reports about possible incidents / occurrences that - after consulting with the manufacturer - have led to the decision to reserve the use of this AAD to more experienced skydivers.
Until further notice the Argus AAD also may not be applied in tandem gear. Also before installation and use of the Argus AAD it should be verified that there are no objections from the (harness container) manufacturer.
Distribution: The usual suspects... (me being among them & yes they have an email-list...)
-----------------

Having no horse in this race a few remarks, if I'm allowed: Elsewhere, in the sticky Argus thread Mr. Jo Oosterveer is accused of being biassed against Argus since "he 's in bed with Vigil". That most certainly isn't the case since Paracentrum Texel has discontinued the Vigil by the end of 2005 / beginning of 2006 and were selling their stock of brand new items below market value - something one wouldn't do if one wants to build a viable dealership for a certain brand. Also flaws in the testing method were pointed out. I do not know about that but I like my cutters to cut and apparently the one that was cutting while it shouldn't in retrospect didn't quite cut it and is therefore suspected of maybe not cutting when it should.
The "tests" with all their flaws were conducted at Texel and mr Jo Oosterveer - who indeed is known to "fly solo" on occasion - works there as a rigger.

It is also the DZ where Adrian Nicholas died after a mishap with yet another brand of AAD's...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[nol 0]

It's better to have your facts right before you post a statement.
The Argus was a test version and was put in standard mode Andy Gruawels jumps a 90 velo and the test result was what i was looking for. So no mis fire what so ever.But it allways easier to tear things down then to help bild things up.
Get your facts right, ask questions and listen to answers.

[riggermick 6]

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It's better to have your facts right before you post a statement.
The Argus was a test version and was put in standard mode Andy Gruawels jumps a 90 velo and the test result was what i was looking for. So no mis fire what so ever.But it allways easier to tear things down then to help bild things up.
Get your facts right, ask questions and listen to answers.

Shit, why let FACTS get in the way of a perfectly good STORY?


Mick.

[mjosparky 3]

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It's better to have your facts right before you post a statement.
The Argus was a test version and was put in standard mode Andy Gruawels jumps a 90 velo and the test result was what i was looking for. So no mis fire what so ever.But it allways easier to tear things down then to help bild things up.
Get your facts right, ask questions and listen to answers.

And you like willyskycam, need to come up with a few facts. Like who are you?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Liemberg 0]

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Shit, why let FACTS get in the way of a perfectly good STORY?

I dunno Mick, for a story to be any good it has to be credible. Overhere that often means reliable and identifiable sources. "Fresh" user accounts wil always meet suspicious scrutiny...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[riggermick 6]

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Shit, why let FACTS get in the way of a perfectly good STORY?

I dunno Mick, for a story to be any good it has to be credible. Overhere that often means reliable and identifiable sources. "Fresh" user accounts wil always meet suspicious scrutiny...

Yeah, good point. For an instant I forgot where I was. Hey you kids get off my lawn!!!



Mick.

[redknight 0]

Is it banned or not ? ? ?
Is it allowed or not ? ? ?
Are we joking, playing or are we serious ? ?
Don't forget.....An AAD is a live saving device.
So stop all this bullshit please
Competition, monopoly, negative reports, etc... OK it is a must and a 2K phenomenon
But there are only a few manufactures of electronic AAD's, don't forget it.
Please let's try to work together to develop

RELIABLE - COMPETITIVE - USER DEFINED & FRIENDLY devices
At the end the skydiver will be the winner

There is place enough for more than ONE manufacturer. Competition is a must

And be sure they will develop it for us

[USPA 0]

Technical comittee members and board of the KNVvL (dutch authorities) have made clear this kind of bulletins will be standard for every new AAD or other life saving devices on the market. First 6 to 12 months operating in the field, only allowed for C and D license (more experienced jumpers of whom can be expected to look after themselves and should know what they are doing) and after that gather the data and clear it for general use. Argus just happend to be the first device in which this "rule" is applied.

(In retrospect they wanted to do this with the Vigil (and I presume Cypres2?) but were caught by surprise (don't even start... :P )

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[kermietje 0]

Eh willy, don't jump so fast on conclusions , check facts before launching such a message, it might explode in your own face, AND , do not forget you are not considered as being "objective"...

Lets fly, thats what it is about no...

[Liemberg 0]

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Is it banned or not ? ? ?
Is it allowed or not ? ? ?

In the Netherlands it is allowed for C and D license holders if and when the manufacturer of the rig allows the Argus AAD in its system.

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Are we joking, playing or are we serious ? ?

If you are asking about the wisdom of the KNVvL and its technical committee I only can say that I don't know and that in the past I have often wondered about that exact same question...


In this particular case one can't help to wonder what is "the room between a reliable and an unreliable AAD" and if it is dangerous for inexperienced skydivers how can it be at the same time safe for experienced skydivers...o well...

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Please let's try to work together to develop

RELIABLE - COMPETITIVE - USER DEFINED & FRIENDLY devices

There must be a bit of tension (to say the least) between "working together" and "being competitive..."
In the final analysis, the only difference between the skydiving industry and other industries is the much smaller scale of the operation. To take it away from this particular case: Jump Shack's Mr. Sherman and RWS's Mr. Booth may be the best of friends on a personal level but if I want to buy a new rig Mr. Sherman hopes I will choose a Racer while Mr. Booth hopes I'll buy a Vector. And even when they are extremely ethical about it and will not 'bad mouth' the competition Mr. Sherman wants me to believe that the most reliable system with the fastest launch of a PC and the cleanest opening is the Racer, while Mr. Booth wants me to believe that the Vector is the best system when it comes to saving my life...

Both can't be true at the same time and unfortunatly for the manufacturers most of us don't need 2 rigs (or 2 AAD's)...

And actually we don't want manufacturers to "work together" too much like as in "dear competitor, what do you think would be a good minimum consumer price for your or my rig or AAD..."

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[gjhdiver 0]

Just to hopefully put this nonsense to bed, here's the latest statement from Aviacom SA.

Dear Skydiving Friends,

On September 13th Aviacom SA became aware that a so called ‘test report’ was circulated, concerning the Argus AAD. This was composed by Mr. Jo Oosterveer, a Dutch rigger.

There he states that he conducted this test on the Argus due to the multiple misfires that already have occurred on the dropzone he works for. He also claims that the Argus cutters are not able to fully cut the loop of the reserve container.


Aviacom was not informed about this report before distribution. This is contrary to common business practice. Therefore Aviacom was unable to react on it until now.

In the opinion of the majority of the experts, involved in AAD-, reserve- and rig testing, this singular test of our equipment is performed without any verifiable facts. This Rigger did not use a scientific way to test the Argus AAD.

Normally we don’t answer publicly to the negative opinion of one individual. In this case however, we would like to reply on the report with the so called test:

There have been NO INCIDENTS and NO ACCIDENTS and NO MISFIRES with the Argus in The Netherlands – or elsewhere.

The president of the Royal Netherlands Aeronautical Association (RNAA), Mr A.M.J.M. Beerendonk stressed the fact that Mr Oosterveer has conducted his test based on his own beliefs and expertise… The RNAA-DP rejects all responsibility relating to the report of Mr Oosterveer.

The Argus is authorized for use by experienced skydivers in the Netherlands. If you like to know more about the situation, please contact the head of the technical committee of the RNAA-DP, Mr Herman Landsman or the Head of the Parachuting Department, Mr Ronald Overdijk.


We formally state that the Argus will do what it is designed for if it is correctly installed in any rig; that is: cutting the loop at a certain altitude at a certain speed.

You can download a copy of our Testreport TS120 on our Website in the download section.

You can also call us +32 485 868788 or mail at [email protected] for more information.

Blue skies,


Karel Goorts

[Liemberg 0]

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Karel Goorts / Argus:

Normally we don't answer publicly to the negative opinion of one individual. In this case however, we would like to reply on the report with the so called test:
There have been NO INCIDENTS and NO ACCIDENTS and NO MISFIRES with the Argus in The Netherlands

BOLD STATEMENT?

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Jo Oosterveer / test report:

Since we felt there was a need for more realistic information especially regarding the fact
whether the “mounting place” could be a contribution to the activation, it was decided to
do our own testing.
By putting a Cypres2 expert, a VIGIL Multimode and an ARGUS, all set in the “Normal”
mode (0, Pro, Standaard) equipped with a Cypres closing loop together into a weight belt
we would create the same circumstances for each AAD.
Whilst preparing the Cypres and the Vigil, the first Argus was up for it’s first jump and
could not be used anymore for further testing since it activated. (fig 1a)

I guess we can conclude that the above at least means that there is an INCIDENT i.e. an Argus AAD activated and was no longer available for testing. Since it is outside the scope of Mr. Oosterveers report I also understand that in the report we are not informed about the reasons and circumstances for that activation, though one cannot help being curious about that one.
It is also clear that with the (only?) Argus unit gone, the test had to be postponed.

So far, so good - but the report continues...

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Jo Oosterveer / test report:

Last weekend, the unit supplied by the manufacturer to Mr. Pennock came in as a
replacement unit and we could continue testing.
...//...
Jump
At approx. 13h10, 11-09-2006 the test jumper left the plane at 13000 ft for a normal AFF
Level 6 jump.
Opening was at 3000 ft, he used a Velocity VE 90, wing load 2,56 lbs.
At 700 ft a 270 degrees left hand hook turn was performed.
After landing we found out that the Argus had activated.
Since both the Cypres and the Vigil didn’t activate you could call this a misfire which
under the given circumstances (testing) indicates a software or sensor problem to be
solved by the manufacturer after evaluating the jump (that’s the reason for testing).
...//...
The Cypres loop was knotted a single time and
after that pulled into the cutter in a way that the
knot was as tight as possible on the hole to get
some tension on the loop.
After that, the loop was taped to the cutter and
the loose end was secured as well.
see "prepared units"
...//...
The loop was not totally separated and got stuck at both sides in the cutter.
Parts of the insert are clearly visible at Fig. 4a
...//...
Additional testing.
Since we didn’t want to run the risk of being criticized for testing in a wrong way, we
decided to rig up a 2 pin Tandem Cypres (end of life time 31-08-2006) the same way as
described above. We also stuck a loop not pre stretched without any tension at all in the
second cutter (fig 5a). Using a certified and calibrated FXC test chamber we went to 7000
ft and started the free fall.
At approx. 1900 ft both cutters fired and fully separated from the loops at both sides (fig
5b).

Of course I would like to "put nonsense to bed" as much as the next member of our great and lovely "Skydiving Family" but for me, for the time being, Aviacom SA's answer "doesn't quite cut it..."

With some good soldering skills, could one put an old cypres cutter on an Argus AAD?

Problem solved...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Sabre1Lucke 0]

No, it IS Willy Boekens, sponsored by and working for Vigil

[gjhdiver 0]

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Normally we don't answer publicly to the negative opinion of one individual. In this case however, we would like to reply on the report with the so called test:
There have been NO INCIDENTS and NO ACCIDENTS and NO MISFIRES with the Argus in The Netherlands

BOLD STATEMENT?

It's easy to make bold statements when the facts back you up

• Quote

[Liemberg 0]

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It's easy to make bold statements when the facts back you up

When they don't however...

What Aviacom SA chooses to label as "the negative opinion of one individual" others may see as an interesting attempt to verify several of the assertions of three different AAD manufacturers. One of the tested AAD's apparently scored "well below par" in that test. Whatever you can say about flaws in the test, the testing conditions were the same for all three AAD's.

Nobody (AFAIK) has said that there had been some sort of scientific hypothesis testing going on - rather impossible according to my former statistics professor because you can't say anything about "a population" when your random sample is small and anything under 500 as sample IS considered small there...

Since 500 test jumps are virtually impossible, for the curious one test jump is still better than no test jump at all.

Aviacom SA wants to show that they are backed up by the facts?

Why not repeat the test then, document it, film it and upload the results to skydiving movies dot com for all to see and repeat the bold statement?

That could prove to be a lot more convincing than "shooting the messenger"...

For the time being I see one AAD firing in a situation where 2 other AAD's didn't fire. I also see one AAD's cutter not cutting the loop after it has fired (for whatever reason) while another AAD brand's cutter did cut the loop when the loop was rigged in the same way as it was on the Argus.

Somehow that resulted in ME "developing reservations" about the gadget and I had not given it any thought before this all started...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...