Some interesting TSO info

[Hooknswoop 19]

TSO C23b and TSO C23c both require that a reserve canopy have a descent rate of no more than 21 FPS in the post-deployment configuration i.e. brakes set, no inputs for a ram-air. 21 FPS=14.3 mph.

TSO C23d require that a reserve have no more than a 24 FPS decent rate (16.4 mph) and no more than a total velocity of 36 FPS (24.5 mph).

These rates of descent limits apply to round or square reserves. I wonder what the rate of descent would be for a few rounds would be and what size reserve would have the same descent rate with the same weight?

NAS 804 applies to TSO C23b. In it, it states that for the low speed (the other category is standard, no high speed), the container must be marked with on the outside of the container with 1-inch red letter, “Low Speed Parachute”, and in ½-inch red letters, “Limited to Use in airplane under 150 MPH”.

Mirages have those placards under the reserve flap, but not in 1-inch and ½-inch letters. I’m guessing that means it is TSO in the low speed category.

The Mirage harness seems as well built and as strong as any other rig. It must have been originally TSO’d in the low speed category and the manufacturer doesn’t see any reason to spend the money to get it re-TSO’d when it really won’t change anything.

Using what TSO a rig was certified under doesn’t seem like a good way to judge the strength of a harness.

Also in NAS 804, it requires an external and internal pocket for the reserve data card. Vectors have them, but the Mirage does not.

AS8015B, which applies to TSO C23d, states that “The manufacturer shall publish and make available a list of interchangeable components which have passed the following tests in 4.3 [qualification tests] when tested in conjunction with the assembly or component(s) being certified.

AS 8015B also states “Primary Actuation Device/Ripcord: The following information shall be marked on the primary actuation device/ripcord:

a. Part number, including dash number
b. Manufacturer’s identification
c. SO-C23()
d. Batch, serial number, or date of manufacturer (month and year)

A rig certified under TSO C23b, standard category does not have a max weight or max speed.

Derek

[JerryBaumchen 1,074]

Hi Hook,

Good post; should be very informative for a number of people.

I do have a question: When you say, "Using what a TSO rig. . . . .the strength of the harness" just what is your concern? Do you have another idea?

I think (please don't make me look it up) that the latest TSO C23d requires that the load be actually measured during the Strength testing. That is one way to gather the data.

Back in the 70's when I was doing TSO testing I wrote to Bill Jolly of Pioneer that I did not think that a C-9 canopy (using the weight/speed chart in NAS 804) would actually generate the 5,000 lb load. He wrote back and agreed but did not offer any additional thoughts.

Interstingly, I understand (since he actually told me) that Troy Loney did not do the Strength tests for the original Centaurus by doing drop tests. He convinced the feds that he could actually get the 5,000 lb load(s) by using a test machine. They agreed and that is what he did. I do NOT know what his exact test procedure was.

Just more information for those who want to know.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I do have a question: When you say, "Using what a TSO rig. . . . .the strength of the harness" just what is your concern?

No real concerns. I have heard people say one harness or another was stronger because of it's TSO.

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Do you have another idea?

I don't think the strangth of harnesses is an issue. I would like to see independant testing of reserve strengths though.

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I think (please don't make me look it up) that the latest TSO C23d requires that the load be actually measured during the Strength testing. That is one way to gather the data.

Right, but it doesn't tell you how strong the harness actually is. You have to take it to destruction.

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Back in the 70's when I was doing TSO testing I wrote to Bill Jolly of Pioneer that I did not think that a C-9 canopy (using the weight/speed chart in NAS 804) would actually generate the 5,000 lb load. He wrote back and agreed but did not offer any additional thoughts.

Hmm. I think the desire to build quality products combined with liability make for very safe harnesses. The TSO process still isn't very good, imo.

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Interstingly, I understand (since he actually told me) that Troy Loney did not do the Strength tests for the original Centaurus by doing drop tests. He convinced the feds that he could actually get the 5,000 lb load(s) by using a test machine. They agreed and that is what he did. I do NOT know what his exact test procedure was.

Interesting. Any more info like that?

Derek

[tso-d_chris 0]

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A rig certified under TSO C23b, standard category does not have a max weight or max speed.

Wouldn't the 150 mph limitation pretty much cover the max speed?

For Great Deals on Gear

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Wouldn't the 150 mph limitation pretty much cover the max speed?

That is only for low speed catagory. Standard catagory has no weight/speed limits. Low speed has a 150-mph speed limit with no weight limit.

Vectors are standard catagory.

Derek

[hookitt 0]

No way.. are you saying the Vector Harness isn't as strong because the of the TSO?

That's nuts!!!!

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Hooknswoop 19]

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No way.. are you saying the Vector Harness isn't as strong because the of the TSO?

No, I am saying that it is stronger than the TSO would suggest. It could be stronger than a harness that is TSO under TSO C23d for all I know. I'm saying that you can't say that a harness TSO'd under C23b isn't as strong as one TSO'd under C23c or d. Same for reserve canopies.

Derek

[hookitt 0]

Damn it... you posted before I could delete it..


I wasn't in any way serious

PS: you should have also quoted the "That's NUTS" part for emphasis.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[teason 0]

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TSO C23b and TSO C23c both require that a reserve canopy have a descent rate of no more than 21 FPS in the post-deployment configuration i.e. brakes set, no inputs for a ram-air. 21 FPS=14.3 mph.

TSO-C23b supersedes NAS-804 on the topic of decent rate. NAS-804 is 21 fps, TSO-C23b is 25 fps

Also, out of curiosity, what does it say in the TSOs about deployment time? I think one of them is 7 sec. from cutaway but I don't know. I needs to do some readin' hyuk hyuk

Tim

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[BlindBrick 0]

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A rig certified under TSO C23b, standard category does not have a max weight or max speed.

Exactly, this combined with a large 23D reserve is why I can legally jump. As for durability, my Mirage has handled repeated openings well in excess of 150 just fine.


-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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TSO-C23b supersedes NAS-804 on the topic of decent rate. NAS-804 is 21 fps, TSO-C23b is 25 fps

??? NAS 804 contains the requirements for TSO C23b. Where did you find the 25 FPS info?

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Also, out of curiosity, what does it say in the TSOs about deployment time? I think one of them is 7 sec. from cutaway but I don't know. I needs to do some readin' hyuk hyuk

NAS 804 doesn't say anything about time, but it does say the drops will be made from 500 feet.

AS8015A says the canopy must be fully open within 3 seconds from time of pack release.

AS8015B states 3 seconds and 300 feet max unless it is over 250 pounds, then it allows an extra .01 seconds for every pound over 250 and 1 extra foot of opening alititude for every pound over 250.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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As for durability, my Mirage has handled repeated openings well in excess of 150 just fine.

I'm sure it will which is why it isn't fair to say that it isn't fair to say it isn't as strong as a harness TSO'd under a different TSO. It may be stronger than a harness TSO'd under TSO C23d.

It would be cool if someone pull tested to destruction every harness in current production and posted the numbers.

Derek

[teason 0]

I found it in the poynter manual Vol I 1.13 second paragraph.
I'm trying to find the TSOs online. Any sugestions?

I love this stuff. I think that makes me wierd!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Hooknswoop 19]

http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_21.html

Is Part 21, but I can’t find TSO C23b in it.

Poynter’s Vol I, first edition has the same paragraph except is says Part 37.133 (TSO C23b). I haven’t ever found anything about TSO C23b except NAS 804.

Part 37.133 now states:
Ҥ37.133 Subscription service.
(a) This part does not prohibit the use of subscription service by public entities as part of a complementary paratransit system, subject to the limitations in this section.
(b) Subscription service may not absorb more than fifty percent of the number of trips available at a given time of day, unless there is non-subscription capacity.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the entity may establish waiting lists or other capacity constraints and trip purpose restrictions or priorities for participation in the subscription service only.”

AS8015B can be purchased from the Automotive Society of Engineers. NAS 804 and AS8015A are in Poynters, vol I.

Derek