lower part of steering lines

[olstad 0]

The lower part of the vectran steering line is worn. Can I replace it with spectra 1000Ib?

Do the math...

[PhreeZone 15]

Sure. You might want to look at sometihng like 400 lb dacron instead though. Spectra shrinks when its heated (like going through guide rings) so the canopy gets more and more out of trim the more you jump it. Dacron and Vectran exibit very little shrink properties.

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[NightJumper 0]

I wouldn't. You should replace the line with the same type. And vectran will cut through dacron.

[PhreeZone 15]

Thats weird, PA sells their Xaos canopies with HMA steering lines and dacron lower steering lines. HMA sould be even more abrasive then Vectran and yet they sell this config on their most high proformance canopies.

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[NightJumper 0]

Then my question is, if it is a good recommendation (yours) to deviate from the original factory specification, then why was it not originally manufactured that way?(vectran/dacron) Any recommended deviation to a factory specification is best left to master riggers and the manufacture.

[RIGGER 0]

You should replace it with the same original line, the
mfg. choose the line type for a reason when he mfg. the canopy & main reason is keeping the trim.

The best sources for the line is ordering the line from the mfg. & replace it. most mfg. will provide you a kit of the Lower Steering Lines ready to assemble & bartack.

The rigger must be aware of the correct trim & bartack the line as needed.

Be aware that even it is a main canopy the work better be done by a Master Rigger.

If done wrong it will effect the canopy trim & Safety.

Safe Rigging !!!

[PhreeZone 15]

>Be aware that even it is a main canopy the work better be done by a Master Rigger

Where in the FAR's does it state this? Its fully in the realm of a Senior rigger to perform repairs like this on a canopy. Packing it wrong can effect canopy safety too but I don't see a master rigging sitting there repacking every main canopy.

And as for replacing the line, ask the manufactor. I know I did and was told I could replace my Vectran with Dacron with no issues.I was also told I could replace my old spectra lines with Vectran or light Dacron. I had a major loft tell me the same exact thing on questioning.

PA is using 400 pound dacron on their lower lines.http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=670858#670858

If your Stiletto has Vectran then its already been modified a lot for the factory design.

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[NightJumper 0]

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Its fully in the realm of a Senior rigger to perform repairs like this on a canopy.

WRONG! No senior rigger can deviate (alteration) from a factory specification. Are you an FAA senior or master rigger? Have you actually made an alteration to gear for someone else or are recommending that they do? Just because it has been done does not make it safe, legal or right!

[PhreeZone 15]

So does adjusting the length of a break lines fall into master rigger realm only too? Factory marks them, but jump wants them let out 2 inches for personal reasons... is that a master rigger change?

I wish the FAA would clairify just who is allowed to do what to a main. I've heard it from both sides of the arguement that only a Master can do this, or a senior can do that... they need to clarify the damn issue and be done with it.

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[mjosparky 3]

Quote

So does adjusting the length of a break lines fall into master rigger realm only too? Factory marks them, but jump wants them let out 2 inches for personal reasons... is that a master rigger change?

I wish the FAA would clairify just who is allowed to do what to a main. I've heard it from both sides of the arguement that only a Master can do this, or a senior can do that... they need to clarify the damn issue and be done with it.

Adjusting the length of break lines is just that, an adjustment. Changing a major component, the brake lines, is an alteration. Alterations and major repairs must be performed by a master rigger or the manufacture.

Funny thing is, if it is done by manufacture, it can be done by anyone that works in the shop. Riggers ticket not needed. Go figure

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[PhreeZone 15]

Well... here is a question then breaking off of this.

In Advisory circular 105-2C Subject: Sport Parachute Jumping Initiated by: AFS-340/820 it states:

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Parachute alterations are changes to the FAA-approved configuration. Examples include installation of reinforcement tape or fittings, alteration of the harness such as changing the size, removal of a manufacturer-installed part, or the installation of an AAD on an auxiliary/reserve parachute system in which the manufacturer does not authorize such installation.

A. An alteration to an approved parachute system used for intentional jumping must be done in accordance with approved manuals and specifications and only by those with specific authorization to perform that alteration. Specific approval is not needed for the method of altering a main parachute. A person seeking authorization to alter an approved parachute system should proceed as follows:

Does that mean that you don't have to actually talk to the manufactor about replacing something like a steering line but you just have to have a master ticket? I gues that means that every reline done by a senior rigger is illegal then right?

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[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Well... here is a question then breaking off of this.

In Advisory circular 105-2C Subject: Sport Parachute Jumping Initiated by: AFS-340/820 it states:

Quote

Parachute alterations are changes to the FAA-approved configuration. Examples include installation of reinforcement tape or fittings, alteration of the harness such as changing the size, removal of a manufacturer-installed part, or the installation of an AAD on an auxiliary/reserve parachute system in which the manufacturer does not authorize such installation.

A. An alteration to an approved parachute system used for intentional jumping must be done in accordance with approved manuals and specifications and only by those with specific authorization to perform that alteration. Specific approval is not needed for the method of altering a main parachute. A person seeking authorization to alter an approved parachute system should proceed as follows:

Does that mean that you don't have to actually talk to the manufactor about replacing something like a steering line but you just have to have a master ticket? I gues that means that every reline done by a senior rigger is illegal then right?

Would you do a reline with the supervision of a mater rigger or specific instruction from the manufacture? I don't consider installing a factory set of lines an alteration. Building you own set out of a different material and installing them I think is.

Thats just my opinion, you do as you see fit. But remember, when the FAA reads it, it reads just the way they want it to. Always leave yourself some room.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[NightJumper 0]

These are all good questions that would be good to bring up at the PIA riggers forum, are you going to be there? And to answer your question, who knows. I had a steering line question one time and called the local DPRE and asked if I could do the work and he said yes. Three days latter after the customer picked up the rig a different DPRE called me and said I couldn't. I contacted the manufacture of the canopy and they sent me a letter of authorization. I basically would only do repairs to the canopies that were from the manufacture that I worked for and sent anything else to the manufacture of origin. Besides, they can usually fix it better, quicker and cheaper anyway and that way I'm giving my customer the best service.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Unfortunately, for several reasons such as budget concerns, lack of expertise, it hasn’t been a problem, the FAA doesn’t consider rigging (or skydiving for that matter) to be a priority. For example, Colorado hasn’t had a DPRE for about a year now.

I have a request submitted to the FAA for about a month now for a legal interpretation of FAR Part 65.111b, specifically, who may alter a main parachute. I will post their reply when I receive it.

When I contacted the local FSDO, I talked to a FAA Inspector and Master Rigger, and it was his opinion that any rigger, the person jumping it next, a TI jumping it next, or someone under the supervision of a rigger may alter a main parachute. He brought up the point that changing how a main is packed is an alteration and Part 65.11b allows the person jumping it next to alter it. Otherwise changing from ‘pro’ packing to flat packing or stuffing the nose or changing to ‘physco’ packing would all be illegal alterations. There would be a lot of illegal alterations to mains every day just from changing how it was packed if you had to be a Master Rigger to alter a main parachute.

Interestingly, the FAA Inspector’s Handbook, specifically says a Senior or Master Parachute rigger may alter a main parachute. The latest change to that chapter (CHP 28) was dated before the latest change to Part 65.111.

The FAA is releasing a new ‘Parachute Rigger’s Handbook’ (FAA-H-8083-17) “soon”. I was told it will be available from Jeppeson and ASA.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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vectran will cut through dacron.

I haven't heard this before. I have seen canopies w/ Vectran/Dacron Steering lines and there wasn't an issue of the Vectran cutting the Dacron.

I wonder why then Vectran doesn’t cut through Vectran, or HMA through Dacron, or Vectran through Spectra, or any line through the nylon line attachment points, etc?

Derek

[masterrig 1]

"Funny thing is, if it is done by the manufacture, it can be done by anyone that works in the shop. Riggers ticket not needed."

Wouldn't this come under that 'infamous', "Under the supervision" clause? Since the manufacturer holds the TSO for their parachute and or harness-container.

Chuck

[NightJumper 0]

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I haven't heard this before.

I have and when I worked at a factory we abandoned the use of the two for that particular application. Again, look at the whole context of the post. What works in one application may not in another. Or are you saying that it is always safe to do that no matter what the design or application is?

[PhreeZone 15]

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Since the manufacturer holds the TSO for their parachute and or harness-container.

But there is no TSO on main canopies. Just like there is no TSO on main canopy softlinks, and there is no TSO on main pilot chutes, or any of those. Technically if I'm reading what some people are saying a master rigger would be required to remove the pilot chute from one dbag and put a new one on.

Also what does the "properly approved" clause in the loft section mean? Can a loft be issued a certificate instead of just people?

I'm looking into PIA, I suddenly found some vacation time I am trying to use to go to it.

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And tomorrow is a mystery

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[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Or are you saying that it is always safe to do that no matter what the design or application is?

Yes, of course, that is exactly what I am saying.

I would like to hear more about Vectran cutting through Dacron, since I haven't heard this before and have never heard of Vectran actually cutting through Dacron. I find it strange that Vectran only cuts through Dacron and not other lines, including Vectran. If it is true that Vectran cuts through Dacron, that information should be made available to jumpers/riggers, etc.

I just tried an experiment w/ Vectan and Dacron. Isecerud the Dacron to the ground and passed the Vecran through it. Then I pulled the Vectran back and forth, in a sawing action, on the Dacron. I worked up a sweat, pulling hard against the Dacron and sawing it back and forth. After inspecting the Dacron, I didn't find any evidence it was being cut through by the Vectran. I repeated the test with 2 pieces of Vectran with the same result.

What do you base you opinion that Vectran cuts Dacron on?

Derek

[masterrig 1]

I should have been more specific. I was referring to TSO'd items. Also, the 'Loft' certification was done away with in the early - mid 1990's. I think, a really good source of the Senior Rigger - Master Rigger 'job' qualifications is Poynter's Parachute Manual. It's quite specific as to what can be done by who. The PIA Symposium is an incredible place of learning and is not just for riggers. There is something for everyone involved in parachutes, skydiving, manufacturing, etc. Well worth the cost of attending. Hope, you get to attend.

Chuck

[PhreeZone 15]

>Adjusting the length of break lines is just that, an adjustment.

ASdjustment is not an FAA term If you change anything as I was told by a master rigger and a different DPRE, its an alteration. Adding in extra links on a CREW canopy to adjust the trim rate is an alteration, installing a longer pilot chute bridle is an alteration. If its not a minor repair, its a major repair or alteration. Both which require master rigger to do (on TSO'd equipment. On non-TSO'd does anyone even care? On a main do you have to have the same tracking of materials that you do on a reserve for paperwork reasons?

The arguement I heard one DRPE make to me was that if I went and made a parachute out of a bedsheet I'd be the manufactor of it and could do anything I wantd to it and the FAA would'nt care. He argued the same sould apply to any main, you are not hed responcible for full tracking of materials on a main like you are on a TSO'd piece of equipment. How can you tell that the piece of spectra that you are going to be replacing will be the same as the type thats on if the paperwork does not match on them?

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[mjosparky 3]

Quote

>Adjusting the length of break lines is just that, an adjustment.

ASdjustment is not an FAA term If you change anything as I was told by a master rigger and a different DPRE, its an alteration. Adding in extra links on a CREW canopy to adjust the trim rate is an alteration, installing a longer pilot chute bridle is an alteration. If its not a minor repair, its a major repair or alteration. Both which require master rigger to do (on TSO'd equipment. On non-TSO'd does anyone even care? On a main do you have to have the same tracking of materials that you do on a reserve for paperwork reasons?

The arguement I heard one DRPE make to me was that if I went and made a parachute out of a bedsheet I'd be the manufactor of it and could do anything I wantd to it and the FAA would'nt care. He argued the same sould apply to any main, you are not hed responcible for full tracking of materials on a main like you are on a TSO'd piece of equipment. How can you tell that the piece of spectra that you are going to be replacing will be the same as the type thats on if the paperwork does not match on them?

I am not going to get into "he said they said" with you. I said "Thats just my opinion, you do as you see fit"

But there is a large difference between "adding something" such a an extra link or a longer bridle and moving the toggle on the brake line.

As far as telling the difference in a piece of spectra, if you picked a piece off the floor there might be a problem. But you could call the manufacture, ask them what they used and match that up to the label on the roll you use. Ahh...but that would be consulting with the manufacture, wounldn't it?

The bottom line is, we could all be wrong. It all depends on how the FAA interprets it on that day.
You could have a letter saying it is like so and all they have to do is say that is wrong. Next case.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[NightJumper 0]

[Quote]Yes, of course, that is exactly what I am saying. YIKES!

Quote

What do you base you opinion that Vectran cuts Dacron on?

I don’t since an opinion is subjective! The fact is that when vibration and load testing was done the Dacron was damaged in the application that it was tested for. Destructive test and microscopic examination was also done, did you? What makes you think that the testing you did would be applicable to testing that I was involved in? Like I said before, to make a statement that two materials will ALWAYS be compatible could be very dangerous. If it works in the application that you are using, then great. Also, in all fairness I was wrong too since I made the statement “vectran cuts Dacron” which could be taken as an “always” implication which is not the intention as there are applications where is does work. And I still think it is wrong for anyone that is not a master rigger or the factory to recommend an alteration to gear that could affect how it works, do you?

[PhreeZone 15]

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And I still think it is wrong for anyone that is not a master rigger or the factory to recommend an alteration to gear that could affect how it works, do you?

I think its funny when factories adopt alterations that senior riggers or jumpers do to their gear. The first soft links were built by riggers, not manufactors. I can think of one canopy manufactor that adopted new trim settings from a senior rigger into a copy approved change after the rigger got rave reviews for the change. Manufactors are great sources of info, but some times new and better ideas come from outside the factory. The whole butt bungie system was on rigs before factoies put them there. I saw a pic of one on a system from the early 80's that someone had sewn there then.

Vectran on vectan wears too. Any material that rubs on another will cause wear. There is no material that is 100% compatible and wear free.

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[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

YIKES!

You did notice the " " after that, right? It was sarcasm.

Quote

I don’t since an opinion is subjective! The fact is that when vibration and load testing was done the Dacron was damaged in the application that it was tested for. Destructive test and microscopic examination was also done, did you? What makes you think that the testing you did would be applicable to testing that I was involved in? Like I said before, to make a statement that two materials will ALWAYS be compatible could be very dangerous. If it works in the application that you are using, then great. Also, in all fairness I was wrong too since I made the statement “vectran cuts Dacron” which could be taken as an “always” implication which is not the intention as there are applications where is does work.

Hmm. So was the application the Vectran to Dacron was tested for wasn't lower steering lines?

I never said Vectran and Dacron are always compatable. I do think they are compatable as steering lines. Given evidence otherwise, I mau change that opinion. So far, none has been offered.

When you answered the question: " The lower part of the vectran steering line is worn. Can I replace it with spectra 1000Ib?"

With " I wouldn't. You should replace the line with the same type. And vectran will cut through dacron."

You implied that if he used Dacron, the Vectran upper steering line would cut through the Dacron lower steering line. Is that what you meant to say?

Do you have any reason not to use Dacron for lower steering lines with Vectran or any other line?

Quote

And I still think it is wrong for anyone that is not a master rigger or the factory to recommend an alteration to gear that could affect how it works, do you?

No, I don’t think manufacturers or Master Riggers are the know-all, end-all when it comes to gear. If they were, then we wouldn’t need AD/SB’s, updates, new versions, and I wouldn’t have found 2 reserve malfunctions packed by Master Riggers (one Rapide link w/ one thread on the barrel nut and one tandem bag lock). They are a great source, but for something as simple as lower control lines, a little common sense will pull you through.

If manufacturers were always right, then you couldn’t put a PD-R into a Racer with rubber band locking stows instead of the bungee safety stow. I’m sure you would disagree with the manufacturer in that case.

Let’s have a contest. You list the fatalities caused by alteration/modification/repairs performed by non Master Riggers or manufacturers over the last 10 years. I’ll list the fatalities caused by manufacturer design and manufacturing errors over the last 10 years.

Derek