velcroless toggles?

[obi 0]

I'm a bit unhappy with my toggles as they don't really stay in place very well. I haven't had one fire yet, but too often they come off partly and flap around, held in place mostly by the tension on the steering-lines. I do replace the velcro often enough that it shouldn't happen, but it still does.
I did a search here and on blinc and looked at all the major manufacturers websites, but they all only offer toggles (line-release or not) that are secured to the riser by velcro.
Why is that? I have velcroless toggles on my skydiving-rig that work really well and never come off. The only downside with them is that you first have to pull up to release them before you can pull down, so in a stress-situation you might loose a bit of time and that's why I haven't installed toggles like that on my base-rig. But aren't there any other designs out there?

[Faber 0]

i have 2 blown brakes on 305 jumps and has to admit that i never changed velcro on any of toogles,i dont see it as a issue.

On top of my toogles they are secured by a "webbing" so they dont fly arround,do you have so on your toogles? or is it only the velcro holding it?

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[obi 0]

Well, hmm, i have 0 blown brakes and more than 300 jumps and I still do see it as an issue.
First a blown brake can really ruin your day by completely fucking your opening/heading and second I don't like to fumble for my toggles when I got a, umhh, shortish canopy ride.
Of course I do have goggle keepers (the elastic hoods) on my risers, but I don't like the brakesetting be held in place only by them and the tension on the lines while the lower part of the toggle is flapping around in the wind.

Note: this has happened to me over the years both with normal as with big-grab-style toggles.

[TomAiello 25]

Are you using "pin style" or "cloth stub style" toggles?

I tend to agree with Faber that the main thing holding the toggle in place on the riser isn't the velcro--it's the brake setting. If you lose the brake setting, no amount of velcro (or velcro-less system) is going to help. If you lose the velcro (or velcro-less attachment) the brake setting will hold the toggle in place, regardless.

All that said, I don't really see a problem with a velcroless toggle setup for BASE. Personally, I've considered using velcroless toggles, and if they were available, I'd probably buy some and start trying them out.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[lifewithoutanet 0]

I've thought about this before, but didn't think there was enough of an issue to merit making one for BASE, but maybe this will help.

Attached is a pic of a paraglider reserve handle. It's a coated wire inside a big-grab handle, each end of the wire threaded through closing loops on the reserve container. This sort of design might provide you w/ a velcro-less system of keeping the toggle on the riser (or rather, since the tension on the brake setting should accomplish that, keeping the toggle controlled/in-place on the riser). Of course, these loops require tension (provided by the packed reserve, in this case). You might be able to move the two loops closer together on the riser and still have the security you're looking for.

Just a thought.

-C.

[TomAiello 25]

That kind of seems like overkill, since there is no container to keep closed. A more standard skydiving style velcroless toggle would probably be sufficient.

What do you think?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Quote

That kind of seems like overkill, since there is no container to keep closed. A more standard skydiving style velcroless toggle would probably be sufficient.

Agreed, but that option had already been mentioned. I was just proposing an alternative that might not have been so obvious.

-C.

[obi 0]

On my skydiving-rig I have cloth-stub-toggles, on my base-rig I have velcro-toggles.

Of course the tension on the brake-lines holds the toggles firm against the guide-rings and the elastic goggle-keepers also help.

But: the toggles surely don't come loose once the canopy has reached line-stretch. They must come loose while the canopy and risers are lifted out of the bag.
While this is happening, there is no tension on the lines, so during the critical phase, there's only the velcro and the elastic goggle-keeper holding them.

I tried around and I find it way too easy to slide the toggles out of the brake-setting when there's no tension on the lines. Once that has happened, the tension that comes with line-stretch won't do anything good anymore and the brake-fire will send your wing into a turn or worse, twists.

I feel that every time a toggle flaps in the wind, I just almost had a brake-fire.

And even if that never happens, I simply don't want to fumble for my toggles. I want them to be right there where they belong so I can grip them and get instant canopy control.

[obi 0]

Quote

Agreed, but that option had already been mentioned.

Well, the reason I'm posting here is that I want to know why nobody makes skydiving-style velcroless toggles for base? And of course I would like to know which designs are there and which ones work best.

[bps 0]

Hi Obi --

I would venture to say that the BASE community, and hence manufacturers, have stayed with velcro over the years because of its simplicity. Snaps have been used (there are still some in use) and various other ideas implemented, but when it comes down to it, snaps and other ways of securing the toggle add complications to the system. Any complication, no matter how small, will rear its ugly head at some point and time -- and that is not a good thing when you have little or no margin for error.

Properly maintained velcro works great and is as simple as it gets, but its down side is the fact that it wears out and you have to replace it often for it to perform properly. (as you've already pointed out) Worn velcro seems to be highlighted even more now-a-days because jumpers are doing more jumps in a shorter amount of time. It still wears the same, but a jumper is more likely to become complacent if he needs to replace velcro every couple of months. (human nature)

I've experienced the same problems as you. I've found that after I replace the "pile" side of the velcro twice, I need to replace the "hook" side of the velcro too. Jumpers often neglect the hook side of the velcro, but that side gets worn too and needs to be replaced. (dirt and grass will also reduce its effectiveness)

I live in the United States, so the bulk of my jumps are slider-down...and a good percentage of those are from slider-down cliffs. Although I've never had a premature brake release in over 600 jumps, I cringe at having a toggle sway around in the breeze when I'm opening close to a solid object. Not just for the worry of a premature release, but also because I may fumble for an extra 1/2 second trying to get my hands into the toggles. For this reason, I take no chances. I routinely check both sides of the velcro on my toggles and if it is even close to worn, I have it replaced. Gear maintenance is one of the variables I can control, and like you, I'll take every advantage I can get.

Back to your question: would a velcro-less system similiar to what is used in skydiving today be safe and effective on BASE jumps? Possibly, but I have reservations. As you mentioned, you may have to slightly adjust the way you release brakes (depending on the design and your current technique). I would also be concerned about the toggle coming out of its hoods during the deployment sequence, leaving you in the same situation as before. (properly maintained velcro is very secure)

But a better design may be out there...

Can anyone else think of any complications or issues that may arise?

Bryan

[hookitt 0]

There are many velcroless toggle designs and some work well, some are not so good.

If I were to make a toggle, I'd just redesign my existing velcro toggles to include a tab at the bottom of the toggle, and an elastic hood on the riser. Leave the velcro where it is.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[tfelber 0]

My BASE toggles have snaps at the top and they are quite new, Aug '05. They seem very secure. So secure one of my friends said he experienced a toggle hangup. I still use them.

My skydiving toggles uses reinforced tabs which attach under elastic keepers. Both the top and bottom tabs exit the keepers from the bottom. So there's no issue of pushing up and then pulling down.

I think this design would work well on a BASE rig, but there is a slight risk of creating enough momentum at opening, long delay slider off or worn elastic for instance, that the toggles could simply fall out of the elastic causing a premature release. Also the pressures applied during packing, moving, climbing, etc could dislodge a toggle.

It's much cleaner and probably lower maintenance to go velcroless. I don't think the costs difference would be significant.

Hey let's have Nitro Rigging make a set so we can try them out.

[hookitt 0]

Keep the velcro regardless. It will keep the toggle against the riser. You want this when sticking your hand inside the toggle. If it's not secure agains the riser, your hand can go behind the toggle while doing a blind grab.

On a BASE jump, I never look at toggles before my hands are in them unless it's an off heading opening.

The goal of the original poster was to keep the tail of the toggle from coming off the riser. An added tuck to an existing velcro toggle is a good solution.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[RayLosli 11]

..."The goal of the original poster was to keep the tail of the toggle from coming off the riser."
-

Ya that is important. So for at least 400 jumps or more now, both slider-up & down. I have been using on my personal set-ups a PIN.
That's right, a fucking strait Pin. I have shown a few people this but the minute you open your mouth about a pin on a BASE Toggle. People Freak-Out and get all Zoo-Toggley & prehistoric, toggle superstitious and all. So I just have been jumping them and don't really talk about it much or try to push the idea on people.
In the Pics. It is just basically a 1-1/4 inch standard skydive industry Pin. In and under the bottom of the Velcro Tab. I place a 1-inch square type-4 (red in color) with 2-bar-tack (in white highlight) to hold the Pin between the Velcro and the Type-8 Riser.
The Big-Grab Toggle has a 600-Dacron loop that is bar-tacked under the Velcro to hold the Pin. Then the Velcro is just stitched over the top on the Toggle as usual.
-
It is all so simple and Strong & does not let the Toggle come loose at the bottom. The Main reason I did this though. Was mainly for the panic Riser Grab in Heading corrections in both Slider-up & down situations. Were you could accidentally snag by Hand or Clothing or whatever the bottom of the Toggle from the bottom-end and rip it out of the Stow.
I got bright idea from FEAR. I witnessed a slider-up BASE jump were the pilot had line twists and in the struggle with Risers & Heading a Toggle was knocked off and fired the brake-line. This only made things worse by speeding up the Spinning Malfunction.
Anyway the Toggle can only be Fired by the NORMAL (downward ripping) Motion, toggle-grab and un-stowing upon the Pilots command. (or the other way.) it will Fire !
If the pilot Mis-Rigs his Brake Stow and it BLOWS on opening....
.
May the Force be with you.
.

[hookitt 0]

That's even better than the tab and much easier to manufacture. Nice work Ray.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Faber 0]

that is a good idea..
Personaly i dont have a problem whith my toogles,I learned my lesson few years back and now has learned to land rearriser no matter if the toogles are on or not.

I also think you might need to considder which kind of jumps your doing.

If you do slider up most of the time,how far away are you then from the object? will line twists harm you from were you find your self under your canopy?

if you do slider off how much time do you have to deale whith a hangup,i know a few people that were injuryed or at least close to so becourse they had a hang up at their toogles,leaving one toogle unstowed one secured.. you´ll need a loong nose or d!ck to release it as you´ll need to correct your flight by the other hand..
Personaly i rather take a blown brake and land on rearriser..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[obi 0]

That is very nice work indeed, Ray! Funny that I had the exact same idea, but wasn't sure if it would work properly as you have to pull out the pin downwards, while the pin is holding the 2 velcro sides firm against each other. So you can't peel off the velcro, you have to "slide" it off, and as you know, this is where velcro withstands the most force. I was a bit worried that with a completely new velcro, it might be hard to pull it off.
Ever had any issues with that?
Obi

[bps 0]

Ray --

I knew that Hook-it was onto an idea when he first posted it, but Ray, your idea looks even better.

Like Obi, I was wondering if you've ever had any "harder than normal brake releases" when the velcro is brand new? (you've made a lot of jumps on this set-up)

Bryan

[RayLosli 11]

I have - Never - had a hang-up or a hard toggle pull. I have used the pin's on all my personal gear for years.
It feels just like the normal Grab & Rip when you go for them. I don't think you can tell or feel the difference in, Pin or No Pin.
It's Not like the Pin is holding down the Bottom of the Toggle hard and firm with no play. There is play in the Loop that holds the Pin. All it does is Not let the Big-Grabs come un-stowed from a Upward motion of un-pealing from the Velcro.
.

[bps 0]

I really like this idea! I'm going to think about it some more...and then get with you Ray to learn more. I'm fairly confident that I'll convert my gear over and try it for myself.

Thanks Obi, Hookit, and Ray!

[blitzkrieg 0]

very, very nice, Ray!

man, and i thought my masking tape (toggle gate) was a good idea...

[RayLosli 11]

It baffles me how the hell have you lived this long ??? ..
.

[cornishe 0]

slicer toogles von hook fliing pile canopee faber yop yop yop.


-am

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[Faber 0]

Quote

It baffles me how the hell have you lived this long ??? ..

I dunno mate but i will look at you when you stop so will i,that will give me a great safe margen from how far i should pull it

Stay safe
Stefan Faber