From Cornishe: Private Forum Authorization

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Hey, all. Just got a call from Abbie (Cornishe), who asked me to post this. He's been offline for a couple of days and will be processing/approving/denying (for some of you) your user account requests for the private forum tonight. Just so you know he's not ignoring you.
-C.

[FIREFLYR 0]

What the hell is "the private forum"?
~J

"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"

[nicrussell 0]

keep up man!! Its regarding the captain protest jump idea.

nic

ur back in the states yeah?

[cornishe 0]

Jamie, I'll PM you.

hey all!

sorry for delays. World Famous Jamie Boutwell was in town and we had 3 good nights of jumping. I'm catching up on logins and posts on the board now...

.

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Sorry, folks...forgot to respond w/ "PM Sent". Jamie's been busy in Europe and hasn't been following events on this side of The Pond (lucky bastard).
-C.

[KidWicked 0]

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What the hell is "the private forum"?
~J

Here's what it is: it's a polarizing, divisive idea that goes against many of the ideals that I feel underpin this sport and that make it what it is.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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Here's what it is: it's a polarizing, divisive idea that goes against many of the ideals that I feel underpin this sport and that make it what it is.

And you're completely entitled to feel that way, man. But would you mind substantiating that and saying why? Not looking to pass judgement, but a statement like that sparks some curiousity. Is it divisive simply because it differs from your opinion? Polarizing because it puts us on opposite sides of a sport?

-C.

[base736 0]

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Is it divisive simply because it differs from your opinion?

It's divisive because it draws hard lines (for instance, "You're allowed in" or "You're not") between one group and another. Over here, we have BASE jumpers. Over there, rangers and anybody who might tell them something-or-other. It acts to build those boundaries beyond their usual significance.

I'm not sure there's room to debate whether or not it's divisive -- just whether or not that's a problem.

For my part, I'm not sure divisive is ever a good thing. I think that sucks about this endeavor -- certainly it makes the whole thing seem a little childish. On the other hand, 150 people off of one object would be pretty spectacular. So whatever.

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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It's divisive because it draws hard lines (for instance, "You're allowed in" or "You're not") between one group and another. Over here, we have BASE jumpers. Over there, rangers and anybody who might tell them something-or-other. It acts to build those boundaries beyond their usual significance.

Good point, but is the differentiation between us and rangers really the issue? I'll agree with the "You're allowed in" or "You're not" point when it comes to BASE jumpers, but I don't think we're really there. It's 'us' and 'them', not 'us' and 'us'. If you're taking my "approved/denied (for some of you)" statement earlier, well, that's just my poor ability to make a joke. Our only purpose in a private forum is to separate jumpers from non-jumpers for planning purposes, just as much as the NPS wouldn't invite us to an internal meeting of how they might deal with such a protest.
Still, could this create a further problem between us and the NPS? Perhaps, if taken too far. I, for one, don't think we've approached that point, yet.

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...certainly it makes the whole thing seem a little childish.

I'll give you a little, there. But the NPS has their formal, government subsidized treehouse...while we're spread all over the country and the world.
-C.

[wwarped 0]

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Is it divisive simply because it differs from your opinion?

the NPS will likely continue to view BASE jumpers in aggregate, not individually.

so if the protest works, we all win.
but if it fails, it puts all of us further from our goal.
(and potentially kill any other avenue...)

the entire community has a stake, but the decisions are restricted to a comparative few.

the project is a high risk/high reward endeavor. is there even a precedent for success? a previous protest that guides the way?

what's more likely, success? or another stain on our public record?

yup, I'd say that makes it divisive.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[cornishe 0]

hey guy. this isn't some new forum or club or whatever. its a group of people who are trying to get something done and need privacy doing it.

if you want to join us you are welcome too. If you don't, then dont worry that we chat in private.

Communist China may be a good place for your views, or maybe North Korea.


.

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[base736 0]

No worries -- wasn't referring to your earlier post.

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Our only purpose in a private forum is to separate jumpers from non-jumpers [...]

I guess that's where I see the problem. My experience has been that whenever I play "us and them" for any purpose, I wind up forced to classify somebody as "them" who I never really intended to isolate. Sometimes hurts others, always hurts me. Your mileage may vary.

I agree that we're not there yet. I just think that, in that sense, this is a step in the wrong direction.

[cornishe 0]

Why accept the confines of the box that they build for us. Why should we just give up our individuality. View us in aggregate? That's their error.

The few are not making decisions for the many. The few are choosing for themselves.


-

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[base736 0]

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Communist China may be a good place for your views, or maybe North Korea.

Nah, on second thought I guess this isn't at all divisive.

[RhondaLea 4]

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Communist China may be a good place for your views, or maybe North Korea.

Not helpful and very alienating.

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Why accept the confines of the box that they build for us. Why should we just give up our individuality. View us in aggregate? That's their error.

Their error is still your problem when they treat you as part of a whole rather than as an individual.

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The few are not making decisions for the many. The few are choosing for themselves.

It's either a community or it's a loose cannon. How it's perceived depends on the process of implementation.

Pick one.

rl

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Well, again we get into a semantic argument, and one I share partial guilt of by my use of the terms 'jumpers' and 'non-jumpers'. Still, the initial poll even had the option "Willing to go help, but not jump and get busted." Some posts have implied 'jumpers only', but I think that's been a general oversight by the posters, with no malicious intent. Again, I'll admit to being guilty of that simple oversight. Yet still, some people have stepped forward to lend their assistance as Ground Crew and even volunteered their "Aunt Bessie"s, willing to aid and abet, but not jump. Perhaps in 'us' and 'them', the 'us' would be better represented by 'The Jumping Community', which as I know it, includes non-jumpers, as well. 'Them' would most likely refer to the NPS.

No one is claiming to speak for all of BASE, but yes, some of us are willing to speak for those of us who wish to protest. I don't see anything wrong with those of you who disagree and urge you to continue this kind of civil debate and discussion. I don't think anyone claims to have the 'perfect solution'. What ends up working will likely be a mix of ideas. Those ideas cannot surface unless people voice their concerns, regardless of their level of participation. There's no intent to alienate jumpers who wish to not take part. The invitation is here, and it's up to everyone how far they want to take it.
-C.

[TomAiello 26]

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The few are not making decisions for the many. The few are choosing for themselves.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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the entire community has a stake, but the decisions are restricted to a comparative few.

I kind of replied to this in the end of my response to BASE763. No one's trying to alienate anyone, but we do want to maintain some sense of operational security. This isn't so much the decision process, as much as the final details. And remember, this is all a work in progress.

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the project is a high risk/high reward endeavor. is there even a precedent for success? a previous protest that guides the way?

This is something I'm hoping someone else can speak to, at least as far as a precedent is concerned, but otherwise, yes...it is high risk/high reward.

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what's more likely, success? or another stain on our public record?

This is one area where some ideas have already been discussed. "Don't grandstand." "Don't low-pull." "Leave your personal agendas at the gates of the park." "Be current with the gear you're jumping." And so forth. Are there other ideas that can help mitigate the risk of another stain? Probably, yes. I, for one, would love to hear them!

-C.

[cornishe 0]

"Communist China may be a good place for your views, or maybe North Korea"

Sorry dude. That part was unnesessary.


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Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[base736 0]

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Well, again we get into a semantic argument [...]

I'm quite certain that's not it at all. My point is that it doesn't matter at all who "us" and "them" are, or for what reasons one plays the game. This sort of division of the world has always, in my experience, ultimately been a mistake.

Still, nobody is proposing anything I would describe as unethical. So, my (now excessively restated) reservations aside, best of luck to everybody involved. As I said above, if this goes it'll certainly be spectacular.

[wwarped 0]

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The few are not making decisions for the many. The few are choosing for themselves.

oh, if this were true...

but it's not. the actions of the individual impact the entire community. if not, there would be no regular discussion of BASE ethics, no thread on if a mentor should assume responsibility for the decisions of their pupils, less criticism of Felix, no colorful stories of self-policing, and no one would cite Nick's list.

yes, I'd like to take full responsibility for all my actions. it is the proper thing to do. then I'd only need consider my own narrow self-interests.

very idealistic and unrealistic.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[PhreeZone 15]

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The few are not making decisions for the many. The few are choosing for themselves.

What happens after this "Protest" if the NPS decides that they are completly fed up with the BASE jumper issue and enact policies that further crack down on BASE on their lands? There is precident on this with in the Off-road groups on BLM lands. My understanding of the issue there was that a small group of off-roaders decided that they did not want to be contained in the area that the BLM set aside for them and went off roading off trails. The BLM got fed up and just elimiated off roading for the entire local area (hikers considered it a victory in getting the lands back). The actions of just a small group ended up effecting the possibilites for the rest of the population.

Since this is a protest jump I would assume that there is no need to flee since you are protesting the system and will be landing and putting your hands out waiting for the handcuffs, or is this more of an organized load in shich if you are able to run then it was successful?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[base428 1]

Kinda hard to crack down further on something that is already 100% illegal in all National Parks without a permit.

You must also understand that a park superintendant cannot simply issue you a permit, even if he's cool with you jumping. He first has to obtain a waiver to the 2001 NPS Management Policy (8.2.2.7) that states "BASE is not an appropriate activity in a National Park". The waiver must come from Washington, as was done for Bridge Day back in 2002. And when they issued the Bridge Day 10-year waiver, they were very careful in writing that this is a special one day a year event.

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[PhreeZone 15]

Its a lot easier to increase fines, jail time, etc if you have people that keep reminding them that its going on under their nose and they need to become even more involved to prevent it. BLM and the NPS work together on alot of issues and policies too, if you rock the boat too much on one side the waves might make it to the otherside and you'll feel the fall out on areas that are currently "Legal".

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[frankj23 0]

Please explain to me:
How can the NPS in Yosemite crack down any MORE than 100% unmitigated proscription of BASE jumping and 100% ingnoring the needs of BASE jumpers?

All normal methods to get them to change have failed, and I would like to jump there legally in my lifetime, not my grandchildrens.



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The few are not making decisions for the many. The few are choosing for themselves.

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What happens after this "Protest" if the NPS decides that they are completly fed up with the BASE jumper issue and enact policies that further crack down on BASE on their lands? There is precident on this with in the Off-road groups on BLM lands. My understanding of the issue there was that a small group of off-roaders decided that they did not want to be contained in the area that the BLM set aside for them and went off roading off trails. The BLM got fed up and just elimiated off roading for the entire local area (hikers considered it a victory in getting the lands back). The actions of just a small group ended up effecting the possibilites for the rest of the population.

Since this is a protest jump I would assume that there is no need to flee since you are protesting the system and will be landing and putting your hands out waiting for the handcuffs, or is this more of an organized load in shich if you are able to run then it was successful?

If you can't kill yourself doing it, its not a sport... its a game.