georger

question: You make a reference to Scott slowing the plane down for Cooper. Sluggo and I have gone back and forth on that as myth vs fact. There are some quotes attributed to Bill R. that may be myth. Sluggo has pointed out increases in fuel consumption, noted in the transcripts, that could be attributed to increased flaps to slow the plane. Or not. Where did you get the information that Scott levelled and slowed the plane for Cooper? Or are you just saying at some point the plane was apparently in a state that favored Cooper, as opposed to an actual documented exchange between Cooper and Scoot or Bill R. that led to that state? Also: are you familar with the timeline Sluggo has assembled from all the info in the transcripts at http://n467us.com/NORJAK%20Time%20Table.htm Can you comment on that timeline and whether you agree/disagree about anything Sluggo has noted? You seem to have some specific thoughts on the 7:45 to 8:20 period. Can you expand on them? It's not clear there's a lot of evidence from the transcripts that one can infer stuff from..are we missing something? Any particular reason you're guessing 66 bundles? Sorry for drilling you..but welcome to the thread! _____________ No problem. I expect to be drilled. Scott brought the plane up to altitude, leveled, and slowed the plane to accomodate Cooper jumping. Scott was cooperating as per Donald Nyrop's order to cooperate and save the situation - give Cooper whatever he wants and the untranscripted part probably would read: "and get him the hell off my plane!" I read this from the transcript. I read this from your and Sluggo's (extremely good) analysis of the transcript. I believe Ckret has also spoken to this point. Scott & Rataczak both cooperated actively. Tina cooperated. That helped give Cooper confidence to jump (and they got him off the plane which may have been their best option!) Yes, I am aware of yours and Sluggo's analyses. I am up to speed (I think!). I am aware of the work Sluggo has been doing on a flight path and a timeline. All very excellent work. To my eye all of this work proves there is flexibility in the path and the timeline to put 305 over northern Portland at bailout, without violating any major tenent-in-fact of the case. I believe Sluggo & you (with Ckret's help) have been moving in this direction all along, in any event. The issue of accuracy vs. flexibility began with Ckret questioning Sluggo about how accurate any time stamp in the transcript could be, whether it was typed TTY or RTTY or radio exchanges, and who and when time values were being assigned to become a part the transcript. At length, you all came to the conclusion and agreed these time stamps are not set in stone but flexible, and probably early. 8:10 can easily become 8:13, 8:13~8:20, and so on. Changing the times changes the position of the plane along its flight path. Merwin Lake becomes northern Vancouver becomes northern suburbs of Portland south of the Columbia. (with the south wind aloft 10-20 kts you have all found in the WX records - applause to you guys!) I have arrived at some of this on my own but I am also feeding back to you what I believe is very credible work by you and Sluggo and others, not the least of who is Ckret himself who keeps pounding at all of you with THE BASIC FACTS! . I have already given my basic scenario for 7:45- 8:20, above. I realise it's simple, but forgive me for saying: 'Cooper is not a complex person'. The options for everyone from takeoff until say 8:30 are few and very simple, as directed by Coopers demands. Fly the plane south, do nothing to disturb the guy, get Tina up front, get the plane into a position for Cooper to bail, and watch him go - BYE BYE! (The threat of a bomb was making everyone behave. It would have become far more complicated had Cooper chickened out and stayed on board with his damned bomb.) I got to 66 bundles by looking at the roughly two bundles found at Tena Bar which equal ~$6000, dividing 6000 into 200,000 which equals 33 and multiplying that by 2 = 66. It's Rocket Science! No, that is how I arrived at 66 quickly. The actual number would I presume be the number of bundles actually banded by rubber at the bank and I WILL NOT waste Ckret's time asking that precise number because it is statistically irrelevant so far as a field distrubution probability is concerned, from the stand- point of the whole Columbia basin and the odds of finding any single bundle in that maze through which a single channel flows (at Vancouver). There trully is a point at which 'mathematical' certainty in this case is beside the point, and irrelevant. We only have a few fixed data points with which to establish certainties. (One data point is the placard at Toutle Lake, seldom discussed). Im not trying to fudge the issue of flight path or timeline. You and Sluggo have already developed it and all I can say is, metaphorically: "you're right on the money in the Columbia!". Thanks...

All good thoughts. I will revise my estimate to 5 years at one site. The kinds of deterioration shown in these bills indicates a uniform consistency of similar deterioration which suggests one location for an extended period of time. Your idea of the whole bag having been at the bar, depositing a few bundles which then get fixed in sediment, then the bag moving on with whatever was in it, could have occurred. That has an appeal logically but there is apparently no "evidence" to decide. The significant fact is: that money appears at Tena Bar at all. That seperates this from the kind of assertion: "well money could have landed in Bejing via ...". The money at the bar has a direct link to Cooper and 305. Even if the whole bag has been at Tena I still opt for the shallow water flow scenario because the Columbia is a high volume swift current situation especially during flood. Currents away from the shoreline would take the bag at a fast rate down stream. The money must get to the shoreline and stay there, somehow. And the money is in remarkable condition which suggests protection of some kind during its history. I do not think a long term constant movement scenario would leave the money in the condition it is in. *I see this whole case as obeying the law of averages consistent with every 'fact' and supposition based in fact, Ckret has proposed. Cooper was an average guy in over his head. Partial learning but dangerous because of his reach. 305 left Seatac and Cooper wanted to bail quickly but could not and did not because the stair dilemma intervened. By ~8:10-8:20 Scott has leveled and slowed the plane to ~160 kts to accomodate Cooper (Scott and NWA want Cooper out!). The sky glow of Vancouver appears breaking the darkness with the skyglow of Portland coming up, Cooper has an idea where he is with the Columbia basin below, and he bails. Whatever parachuting scenario developed then completes the story with some money left in the Columbia basin, which then is found. You say 100 parcels of money. I was thinking more like 66. Whatever the number statistics and probability now come into play. Why? Because any money was found at all. The probability of any single spot of money being found in the whole Columbia basin is exceedingly small. That any money was found suggests 'distribution'. The probability is simply higher if 100 or 66 or even 33 spots of money are distributed than if only 1 is sent lose into the whole basin. So having found one spot of money we can safely assume a larger distribution by some means. Again, the mere fact of any money being found almost requires more money having been present and distributed at some time. If we had the bag we could almost assume something drastic happened to seperate the money from Cooper, from his point of view. He was giddy at receiving the money and would not have been happy losing it. This tells us nothing of whether he lived or died. I will leave it at that. I have calls out to several experts. Hopfully one will come back to me.

Let me make a few calls here and I will get back. My rough estimate is at minimum 3 years which would place those bills on the bar in 1977. My actual thought is, the whole bag or a part of the bag with money was at Tena Bar and eroded from there leaving the remnant found in 1980. The problem with that theory is no part of the bag or even threads from the bag were found along with the money, so far as I know. It is either that or the stacks of bills as a semi cemented block were "rolled up" on Tena Bar by the current because it hard to conceive of this 'wad' of wet currency floating in any fashion. In deep water a wet wad would sink (like a stone). So if it was a wad and it rolled by action of current then it could only have rolled across shallow terrain from up stream. It could not have rolled too far or the wad would have been destroyed. The probability of that wad (or any block of money) having rolled all the way from the Washougal is zero. So, the distance for rolling by action of current is relatively short for any given block of bills, once seperated from the bag. And it must be a rolling action vs flotation. Also: when I said salts I was referring to mineral salts as opposed to HCl as in sea water. (I knew that would come up the minute I said it). I agree with Ckret. I believe the money is crucial. The money "is the evidence", as it were (literally). I dont believe it is any accident the money was found along the Columbia and I do not believe it washed down via the Washougal or elsewhere. I think the fact of money anywhere at the Columbia River is a direct link to Cooper's bailout. I have two rather solid pieces of evidence for believing this. The first has to do with the mathematical probability of ever finding any of the Cooper money at any specific location. And secondly, Cooper's general behavior and the general flow of events as they happened aboard 305 after the takeoff from Seatac. I believe these two scenarios outlined above place a high probability of money or other evidence of Cooper showing up near this general area of the Columbia. I would be happy to explain this if you want me to. In general I agree very closely with Ckret's assessment of Cooper as an individual, and the outline of specific events which transpired on 305 from say 7:45 through to 8:20, thereabouts. Let me make a few calls to gett corroboration about decay of US currency and I will check back later. Thanks again.

I've been curious about purple staining. I know that iodine tests are used to detect high starch levels in counterfeit bills. The discolored Ingram bills seem to have purple staining. I was wondering if there's any database on what causes different types of staining to the flax/cotton US bills. Try zooming in on these. Some have the holes which I assumed were insect. You can zoom in a lot with these and maintain resolution. Yes. I will give what expertise I have. The true experts would be in the Treasury Dept or in the numismatic community, or Soetheby's, etc. Paper money is very specific in paper, dies, and techniques, aging, etc. while also following the general rules of entropy. These are good images. This is wet money vs dry money decomposition. I see no sign of the money having been given a trace element or dye for tracing from its origin before Cooper. You see obvious (wet) oxydisation (yellow green), some signs of mildew (fungal) dark blackish-grey staining, and the violet suggests salt(s) contamination to my eye.Spectroscopy of the paper would answer all these questions. I know of no website with a data base which specifically addresses these issues. The holes are interesting but also the areas of degeneration peripheral on each bill. A palentologist might make some sense of this, but more probably there were larvae and other artifacts which came along with the stacks of bills and their flakes when found - which might confirm nothing more than the money was found where it was found, and had been in-situ for some time. One last thing, I see no signs of stress in the money. By this I mean a uniform deformation of the money (through the bills) as from a collision or severe impact which carries a stress or shock wave through an object (even a stack of paper or money or soft tissue). A number of years ago I saw a close photo of the stacks of money the Ingrams brought in, and then a photos of the money spread out, and I looked for any sign of stress or deformation in the bills (one to the others), and I could find none. I wondered about this vs. the options of the money have dropped from the sky and hit earth, or been with Cooper hitting earth or water at high velocity (eg. 32ft sec/sec). Now, a UV and possibly an IR scan of the money might find stress pattern? Its a possibility but of course all of the money is now distributed and far flung so no group analysis can be done. A few bills could still be examined, just to say you did it! Thank you Snowmman.

Thanks for the reply. Obviously the Seattle PI map of Tena Bar is wrong. I attached a few correct which show the outline of the river from Washougal out beyond Tena Bar. I will assume the area opposite Tena Bar was searched, for some distance up and down stream. Tena Bar sits on the right hand side of the river and even juts out (in dry periods) into a free flow field following the rather sharp right hand curve in the Columbia, prior to the channel involving Tena Bar. (Fast deeper water flows to the outside of an arc, Slow more shallow water to the inside of an arc). These remarks must be interpreted in the context of the Columbia being a wide river; during flood even wider. But the the principles of flow and deposition are the same. Debris in this situation would collect on the inside of the curve, then wash into the channel or even to the opposte side depending on velocity and volume of flow, then be conveyed downstream some conveying to the sides (shorelines), again depending on time of year and velocity and flow. The problem is "entry point" (above, from sides proximate to Tena Bar, or further upstream as in the Washougal hypothesis.) There may also be a fourth option, as I read the maps, which is the Vancouver Lake area upstream and not too far behind Tena Bar. If Tena Bar is affected by overflow from Vancouver Lake then that is a possible entry point, also. I seriously doubt Tena Bar was the original deposit site unless by accident money was dropped or buried further inland and it washed or eroded to that location, apparently after dredging operations. Only two things come to mind which might shed light on this matter. I notice what appear to be 'worm holes' in the money? I wonder if these holes penetrated the total stacks of bills or were just superficial. Different worms leave different (hole) tracks and patterns, which might help distinguish if money spent its time on land vs in the water. BTW, the outer areas of the bills show relative uniform wear in terms of erosion, rolling, and decay. Notice the curved wear patterns at both ends of each bill. This is consistent with uniform wear from burying vs one specific side of the bills being subject to directional wear (as bills sitting in stream wash). I tend to agree with the poster who points to the lack of staining from water - in fact colour in several bills is still very bright. But the wear patterns suggest a uniform state of decay consistent with burying, unless I am missing something. Lastly, had it been me, I would have had some of these bills analysed under a microscope simply on the chance some clue in pollen, bacteria, or mineral deposits might turn up. In addition, I would have taken samples of some of these bills (outisde of stack vs inside protected in stack) and run some mass spectroscopy on the samples, just to see what turned up. You never know. Clues like this might shed light on their history. That's enough for now - and thank you. I wish you all great luck in this quest. George

First Time Posting: had to ue reply option because I find no 'post' option, so hope whatever transgression Ive made it will be accepted - ON A DIFFERENT NOTE: Where exactly IS Tena's Bar? Or 'Tina Bar'. I have the longitude & latitude which brings my eye to a totally different location than that published by the Seattle Post Intelligencer. PI photo atatched (I hope). Thanks for any clarification. My reason for wishing to know is hydrological-geological... thanks for any help. May I also what photo fileformat is taken here: jpegs, bmp's, gif's ??? Let me see if I can do this now - the magic of computers and forae-intelligencers!