Gravitymaster

Notice also how she stipulates it wasn't an acceptable "carry-on" item, yet they refused to allow me to check it.

And my reply: Dear Ms. Futch, I was there so I know what happened. Apparently Delta Airlines is attempting to switch the responsibility from Delta to TSA. It was Delta's Supervisor, Katherine Wilson who made the decision not to allow me to board the airplane. I even offered to check the bag but was told by Ms. Wilson, not TSA, that I would NOT be allowed to board the plane. In addition to that, it is Deltas' responsibility to know whether or not an item is dangerous or not. I understand that in a busy airport, on a Saturday it is impossible to make this kind of investigation. I propose a meeting with Delta Airlines allow me to meet with Delta Security officials with my skydiving rig. I will be happy to disassemble the container and let Delta Security inspect the device. I will also challenge them at this meeting to point out to me the "compressed gas" container. I have also been in touch with several FAA certified Senior and Master Parachute Riggers who have volunteered to be present at the meeting to answer any questions Delta Security may have regarding this device. I will also bring with me to the meeting all the technical specifications for the Cypres for Deltas' review. After Delta has done a thorough inspection and investigation, I would expect a letter addressed to me from Delta regarding its' conclusions and would expect Delta to send a memo out to all its management. The ball is now in Deltas' court. I am perfectly willing to go the extra step to educate your security people to help you avoid a growing dissention within the skydiving community regarding Delta Airlines. Hopefully, Delta understands this isn't about one person with a problem but a larger problem within the 100,000 + members of our tight-knit community. Simply put, if Delta won't allow us to carry on or check our equipment, we will book on an airline that will. Every other airline allows these devices and I would think it would be in Deltas' best interest if it truly cares about treating its' passengers fairly to investigate this issue thoroughly. Best Regards. John Hanrahan

New Letter from Delta 01/02/03 Dear Mr. Hanrahan: Thank you for your additional comments concerning your experience at the Washington Dulles Airport. We treat any report of customer dissatisfaction very seriously, and are sorry you were disappointed with the reply you received. Our records indicate that you attempted to go through the security check point with the backpack containing your parachute, and were advised by the TSA security officer that it was not an acceptable carry-on item. A Delta representative explained to you that we could not transport a cartridge that appeared to be CO2 or pressurized gas. Therefore, we declined to transport it. Mr. Hanrahan, the safety and security of our passengers must always be the overriding consideration in situations like this. Nonetheless, we regret your disappointment, and your feedback will be invaluable as we review this aspect of our service. We value you as a customer, and will always do our best to merit your confidence and support. Sincerely, Heather Futch Manager Customer Care

Or what will happen once this uninformed decision spreads through the Delta employee grapevine that Skydiving Rigs contain compressed gas. On a somewhat related subject, I thinking about printing some T-shirts expressing our dissatisfaction with Delta. Some of the suggestions have been: "Skydivers don't let friends fly Delta" "Delta Airlines-Skydiver Unfriendly" I would appreciate everyones input and will send a free T-shirt to whom ever submits the winning slogan. Bob

QuoteMouth, Skymonkeyone and Katiebear flew Delta to Eloy with no problems (at least they arrived with their rigs, and they weren't foaming at the mouth because of TSA). So it is possible. In Houston Hobby and Phoenix, there was no issue with TSA. I'm told Houston Intercontinental is a little tougher, but I try to avoid that one anyway. I'd say most of the time it's OK, and it really really sucks when it isn't. There are skydivers who travel every day with their rigs and don't encounter a problem. We all know that. The question is if you want to support an airline whose POLICY is to deny you the ability to carry your rig on? Bob

Which proves my contention this was not just one uninformed individual I encountered at Dulles Airport, but a Delta Airlines Policy!

My reply to Delta Customer Care: ________________________________________________________________ Dear Ms. Futch, Thank-you for your quick response to my inquiry regarding Deltas' denial of service to me on December 28, 2002. It is unfortunate that Delta Airlines has chosen a position that is NOT shared by any other Airline regarding the Cypres-Automatic Parachute Opener. I find Delta's position particularly troublesome in light of the fact that it is fairly common knowledge within the Airline Industry this device does not contain any compresses gas and has been certified as acceptable to be carried on by DOT/FAA. Most recently our governing organization, the United States Parachute Association and the Cypres's manufacturer has been involved with educating TSA as to what they look like on an X-Ray screen, and insuring they do not trigger the new devices which sense explosives. However, if this is Deltas position, I will post your correspondence on the Internet to over 100,000 Skydivers worldwide who fly with the Cypres, some several times per year, so they can make an informed decision in the future as to which Airline will be their best choice when considering their Skydiving vacations. Sincerely John Hanrahan

Here is the email I recieved from Delta today: _______________________________________________________________ Dear Mr. Hanrahan: Thank you for taking the time to write regarding your experience at the Washington Dulles International Airport on December 28, 2002. Federal law prohibits many hazardous materials, such as compressed gas cylinders, in either checked or carry-on luggage. To ensure the safety of our passengers, Delta reserves the right to refuse to transport any questionable items. Nonetheless, we regret any misunderstanding, and are sorry for any inconvenience you experienced. Mr. Hanrahan, your comments are appreciated, and will be helpful in our overall performance evaluation. Again, thank you for writing and sharing your experience with us. We hope you will forgive us for the poor impression you received, and will grant us an opportunity to serve you again in the future. Sincerely, Heather Futch Manager Customer Care ______________________________________________________________ I think it's becoming abundantly clear after over 10 years cypres has been in production..with all the time we are told USPA and SSK have put into educating Delta Airlines and others, after all the communications with TSA, FAA, DOT etc., Delta Airlines doesn't have a clue what a cypres is. They have just helped me make my decision what Airline I will NOT be flying in the future. Bob

Sorry to hear you had a problem. Glad TSA at least let you check your bag and complete your trip. Please let USPA and SSK know the details of your problem also. It will help them if you can include date, time, Air Line and Flight#.

The person I spoke with at USPA told me they had asked Airtec for the letter but had never gotten it. I will call Cliff on Friday if I haven't heard from him before then.

Dude....I know Army guys are slow...but...READ THE THREAD....there ain't one..... I think they made it up. I'm not ready to say they made it up. I do think it's very curious that everyone including USPA has accepted it exists without actually seeing it. I will find out more tomorrow and will post any new information I get. Bob

All I said was that we need to be cautious when we discuss the technical details. If you TELL them it has an explosive device that fires a sharp cutting implement that severs the nylon loop, yes you are screwed. If you use one of my answers you will simply explain that if it senses you are falling too fast it has a small relesase on the closing loop that deploys the reserve. And yes, I have had issues with my rig before. They were resolved by going to the checkpoint super. You just happened to get a few that weren't up to speed on this. I'm just careful about how I explain things and thought I should mention that. I agree.

Yep, thats another reason this issue is so important to all of us. Heres some more information everyone might find interesting. The letter Airtec claims to have from DOT/FAA stating the cypres is harmless and O.K. to carry onboard and aircraft? Nobody at USPA has ever seen it. Thats right, "NOBODY AT USPA HAS EVER SEEN THIS LETTER". Thats what I was told when I asked for a copy of it. Bob

We all have been through airports without it being an issue. Thats not the point. Imagine yourself standing there with TSA and Air Line Security saying to you, "This Cypres thing ain't allowed because it contains compressed gas". Or: "This Cypres thing ain't allowed because it contains an explosive." What is your response going to be? "No it doesn't"? I found out how far that will get you. I got the same B.S. letter from TSA as Jessica did so tomorrow I'm going to call TSA and speak to a human being. I tried to call Ed Scott at USPA today but he'e on vacation till Jan 2. I also have the email address for the Delta Security Supervisor who made the decision to deny me boarding and I will send her an email once I have the information I am seeking fron Airtec and SSK if a satisfactory resolution hasn't been reach soon. Thank you to all of you who care enough to get involved. Bob

O.K. heres what I got: TSA Email: [email protected] 1-866-289-9673 _______________________________________________________ Delta: Http://delta.Com/Care/Email/Index.Jsp The only thing I found for Delta so far is the above online email form and their HQ addres: Delta Air Lines 2008 Terminal E Row C Dallas, TX 75261 972-456-1173 ___________________________________________________________________ FAA: Email: [email protected] Scott McHugh-Federal Security Adm 703-661-6070 ___________________________________________________________ Dept of Transportation [email protected] This is for complaints. ____________________________________________________________ I will post more detail as I am able to obtain them. Bob

I just got an email from Cliff Schmucker from SSK. They are getting in touch with Delta and TSA regarding this incident. Will keep everyone updated. Don't even begin to think this solves the problem. Cliff also mentioned in his email he expects a lot more incidents like this after Jan 1, 2003 when TSA starts x-raying ALL baggage. My advice is to start sending those emails and making phone calls because there is a chance this could happen to you the next time you fly with your rig. Bob

It should be of concern to all of us. If everyone who has read this thread so far will take the time to contact Delta and TSA it might have an impact. On the other hand if people read it and just say to themselves "this sucks, glad it didn't happen to me" and don't take any action, then I am afraid we are going to see a lot more of this in 2003 when they start X-raying even checked luggage. I would also hope those who would like to see Delta/TSA address this problem by contacting them would do so in a non-confrontational manner. I would simply tell them you have heard about this incident and would like for them to send you a copy of their policy regarding skydiving rigs and Cypres. I know Airtec and USPA have tried to address this for years in a diplomatic way. I think now is the time to let them know from the Skydiving Community, it's going to affect their ticket sales since there are probably ten of thousands of Skydivers worldwide who use AADs. I like the boobie threads as much as anyone else does, but this is important and we need to act before YOU are being escorted out of the boarding area like I was. I didn't think it would ever happen to me either. Bob

I know many skydivers fly Delta every year without incident. Its possible I just ran into an idiot. Hopefully thats all it is. I will find out when I hear back from Delta. However, this is the second time this year I have run into a problem with Delta. The first time, I was able to B/S my way onto the plane but not until they took us into "the little room to the side", questioned and searched my G/F and I and hand searched our bags. We also thought it was an isolated incident the first time, but 2 times in a row makes that hard to believe. Bob

The problem I forsee is when you use curb side check-in as I usually do. The Skycaps aren't going to be screening your bags. Hopefully, if there is a problem, they would let you know before boarding. My concern is when you are dealing with the incompetence and lack of proper training level I have experience with certain airlines, anything could happen. Bob

Like you expect governent regulations to make some kind of sense???? Are you mad???? Wait until Jan 1, 2003 when they start X-raying even checked baggage and your cypres shows up on it. I suspect we are going to have some real pissed off skydivers when they arrive at their destination and find their rig is still back at the airport they departed from. Better start writing those letters to the FAA/TSA/USPA/Airtec/ etc now boys and girls. Bob

Oh God no!!! Now you want to bring EXPLOSIVES on an aircraft???? Are you out of your mind???? Yet you can bring 11 lbs of ammunition as long as you check it. Go figure

It may have even helped to have a copy of their policy on carryon rigs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have searched TSA website and can't find anything regarding skydiving rigs. Delta does have a policy conducive to skydiving rigs, but they say you can't have anything containing compressed gas. That seemed to be the basis on which Delta refused to allow me to board. The arguement then became whether or not my cypres contained compressed gas. Since neither Airtec nor U.S.P.A. has provided us with a credible disclaimer, we as skydivers will always lose the arguement on this basis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I make it a point to take all of the information I can with me. It would also probably help if Airtech had a copy of the TSA/FAA letter available on their web site to refer to. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yep, rather than the press release. Thats why I've asked if anyone has actually seen this information in writing or are we simply taking Airtecs word for it? According to someone I spoke to at USPA, they haven't seen the "letter" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If everyone sent letters and emails to all involved we might be able to resove this. I sent the following email to Delta, TSA, FAA, Dulles customer service, USPA, PIA and Airtech. ______________________________________________________________________ Agreed. This is the best way for us as skydivers to handle this. Apparently Airtec and USPA haven't been completely successful.

If Bob was only a young man! Compared to who? You seen me standing next to Strom Thumond? I'm a spring chicken.

I'm seriously thinking about it. I figure it only costs about $50. to file a claim in Small Claims Court and even if I lose, the most I'm out is the $50. On the other hand, Delta will have to send a representative to court. If I can get the kind of info I have asked for previously in this thread, I think I could win a judgement and their legal department would be forced to send out a memo to ensure this doesn't happen again. I would also encourage anyone else who has this problem to consider doing the same. I have sent Cliff Schmucker an email stating my desire to at least look into the possibilities of a suit and have asked him to provide me with the information I think I will need. I'll keep everyone updated on my progress.

Heh, heh. I think the key to this is going to be to show Delta, TSA and all the other airlines the cypres is safe and most importantly to have something in writing from a credible source to contradict what Airline security is saying about the cypres containing compressed gas. Why don't we all have this yet?