topdocker

diablopilot

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So if the USPA publicly faulted him, it could be like throwing him, and possibly the DZ, under the bus.

The flip side of that coin, is that it could be construed that the USPA approves of such behavior.

Obviously, they do! You don't get to be Chairman of Safety and Training by pissing off the President of USPA, you get there by being in the same camp. That hasn't changed, just a little inconvenient for a while.

It's about politics and money, not about members and safety.

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catfishhunter

*********Is it possible that the reluctance of the USPA to publicly discuss this matter is do to the possibility of them being named in a civil lawsuit?

It's guesswork to speculate about others' state of mind, especially a group of others. That being said, assuming Rich wasn't performing his jump on behalf of the USPA or in the course of his duties with the USPA (and despite the old canard that anyone can try to sue anyone for anything), I see no basis for any liability claim at all against the USPA arising out of this incident.

No, but a public statement from USPA with some sort of punitive action would surely be a great asset in a lawsuit against the jumper. So, if you want to protect your friend...

You are the only person that gets it. Amazing really. I read this WHOLE thread and the only one that gets what is really happening is Remi. Care custody and control. Andy should get it but maybe he doesn't want to chime in and feed the sharks but this is about CYA. If he was disciplined he would be served up on a silver platter to the sharks which he still may very well be. A spectator isn't beholden to any "waiver" and they don't cover gross negligence which is what it would be considering he was/is the head of Safety for the whole sum of skydiving in the US let alone a DZO which puts him in care,custody and control. I don't have a law degree and would be able to walk in and win this in 10 minutes if he was found guilty and punished by the USPA. Nothing else matters no matter what DSE or "Twardo was told you guys have my utmost respect and I get the smoke and mirrors but we are all grown ups and being scared of losing everything SHOULD keep one from doing stupid shit and when you do STUPID shit that injures others it should be extremely painful..

Still amazed only Remi figure that out..

You are right, you are not an attorney.

In my mind, this was not about punishing someone, but keeping the integrity of the role of Chairman of Safety and Training. Do you think Rich will be able to fulfill his duties in that role with this clouding it?

What happens if next year Rich plows into a four year old girl and injures her at a demo? Do you think USPA's failure to do anything will play a role in sucking USPA into another lawsuit? Again,the BOD is exposing USPA to lawsuits by protecting others instead of the constitutional responsibility of protecting USPA.

YOU don't get it.

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likestojump

***You can use the professionally made tridem..... or you can go more along this route

I prefer the cheaper way

Parkman, OH??

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jlmiracle

Thank you topdocker.

I was just thinking in a "going forward" type deal. We are never going to hear Sherry's reasoning or even Rich's side of this incident. When someone is disciplined, its closed door meetings. I want to know who might be a danger to me in the sky and on the ground. Not saying people don't learn from their mistakes because many do but many do not so I think we, as jumpers, should have access to information about unsafe jumpers for our own safety.

j

Interesting, but I don't think it will happen. Mostly because the people who are disciplined are Instructors, not average jumpers. USPA is trying to protect the general public from screw-ups, not save its membership from them. USPA cares about numbers of members, not the individual members.

Also, that is the procedure that has been established. Maybe the Chair of the Safety and Training will contact the Constitution and Bylaws committee chair and see about making the meetings open..... doubt it!

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I know some pilots won't put the flaps down because floaters like to use them for handles in spite of the large "Do not grab!" signs on them. It seems 200lbs of stupid hanging on a flap is bad for it....

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normiss

Yahtzee!


Sadly, in the end, it won't matter one bit.

Sadly, I concur.

The BOD doesn't care and most members don't care.

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jlmiracle

JFISH - this response is not directed at you...

I think we are asking the USPA for the wrong things. We want transparency, correct? but according to the bi-laws they have a bunch of confidentiality crap in them, so we can only go off rumors and what is posted here, because they won't/can't share with the rest of the USPA members.

They (some of the BOD's, not all) think DZ.com is a joke, but they don't/can't give us any information to defuse the rumors and all the stuff they think is "crap" on dz.com.

I may be completely off base, but if the board wants to shut us up they have the ability to do that by changing their way and bi-laws.

We will never agree with everything they do, but it sure would be nice to be able to really support an organization that is more transparent. If people don't like their bad behavior being aired in the skydiving community then they should just not act that way. Not that all mistakes/accidents are on purpose. People who are arrested are publicly listed even before they are convicted. Why can't this little organization do the same? Why can't we have a better way to communicate with them, without EVERYONE having to call/write and ask the same questions.


J

I have served on the BOD. This isn't about transparency, we all know what happened. The eye witness accounts were posted shortly after the original incident. Unless the Regional Director or some other BOD member asks for an investigation to be done in an incident, it just isn't done. It's like getting your bike stolen but figuring the police paperwork is more of a hassle than getting a new bike.

But, this isn't just some toggle jockey who screwed the pooch, this is THE guy you go to when you screw up and start the begging process to get a rating(s) back! This is THE guy that supposedly not only administers the rules of our organization, but is instrumental in writing them. (Like high performance landing areas being away from regular jumpers and objects).

By the co-owner of the DZ's own admission, this was a pattern of behavior for the DZ.

This is not about transparency, its about credibility. Rich lost his as THE safety guy when he pounded into a table and then into another jumper. Sherry lost hers in trying to take the heat off of Rich and refused his resignation from the chair of the Safety and Training committee. The entire Board is losing its credibility because two of its key members are not working in the best interest of the organization.

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DougH

***
In all seriousness though aren't these rules mainly to protect the manufacturers from yet another lawsuit? Because accidents caused by newbies who cant fly, can happen at anytime when jumpers are within close proximity.

What are you getting at? Are you implying that the rules set by the manufacturer are primarily motivated for legal reasons? That is asinine!


I won't imply that, I will state that: the rules set by the tandem manufacturers are primarily there to stave of the possibility of lawsuits. Since they really can't enforce those rules, they lobby USPA to do it for them.

Think about it: the manufacturers make rules that they don't even have to enforce, they just call up someone at HQ and it gets done. No matter how onerous the rule might be, no matter how silly, it just doesn't matter, the membership gets to fund the enforcement.

Think about that next time you are paying your membership renewal.

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DocPop

***
I'm speaking from a pretty ignorant perspective, but just today I heard for the first time a completely different version of what happened than was reported in the original incidents thread. That thread made it sound like Rich's behavior was blatantly reckless and prompted many who read it to get on a "throw the bum out" soapbox. What I heard today was quite different and didn't sound at all like his actions were anything more than a botched execution.

I don't know which version - if either - was correct, but the original version getting such a venomous response from many members may have had something to do with HQ's actions.

Could you elaborate on the alternative explanation?

Here is from the original incident thread:

Quote

Hi all.

I am marko another DZO of the DZ.

I am with Tyfani right now and she is looking great and should be out of the hospital in a day or two. Rich had surgery the other day on his femur and he is home.

As to what happened, we have a lot of stuff going on right now other then this incident so excuse me for not announcing it all.

Saturday during sunset load Tyfani was sitting on a bench in the spectator area 2-3 feet from the rope keeping that area and the landing area separate. Rich did a 120 degree turn about as i watched before i started my turn over the landing area.I couldn't see exactly what part of the building/grass/tent he went over but was clearly near the spectator area. He came next to the tent and was pretty low, he ended up hitting a picnic table first which he broke his femur on and then bounced off and hit Tyfani. She got thrown forward 2-3 and onto the ground. Both got media-vac out because of riches femur which was critical, and we were scared that he may have caused damage to her spinal cord. We weren't taking any chances and had her on another helicopter out. It was a freak accident that shouldn't have happened, thank god both are making a full recovery.

Rich is very sorry about the whole thing and theres nothing he can do to take the chain of events back at this point. Ive been jumping with him for about 6 years now and we have done 1000's of jumps together, he is very safe and heads up and has a lot of knowledge, just wish this isn't the one where he messed up that it brought another person into it.

The picture of someone swooping between the tent and building is me. We sometimes sent up loads just with fun jumpers and had some fun swooping keeping people out of harms way.There is no reason any of us should be doing what we did. Now that we area much more busy drop zone with a turbine we won't be doing that anymore. Im really sorry this all happened and we are all happy no one got more injured then they were.

Bold added for emphasis by me.

This first-hand account sure sounds like an intentional move into an area with spectators and obstacles in it while technically landing in the landing area. Aerial photos show lots of other areas if he was landing short due to a bad spot.

So, who has another version?

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Southern_Man

******All of this suspicion of a cover-up or conspiracy theory etc could be put to bed if someone from the USPA would make an official statement regarding the incident, investigation and outcome.

We could then all discuss the official facts instead of having to surmise, keep secrets and piece together things from different sources.

The USPA is supposed to work for its membership. It seems like the general membership is deliberately being kept in the dark here.

I'm not picking sides here, but if HQ made public statements about everything each member would like a statement about they would do nothing but make public statements all day every day.

I'm not even sure if the organization is required or authorized to discuss procedural matters with the general membership.

Anyone know the scoop on that?

I'm not an insider in any stretch of the imagination. I am sure they are not required to make any sort of public statement. I do remember whole bunch of the current board members promising more transparency and accountability to the membership when they were running for the board in the last election...

Actually, when doing investigations, the opposite is true. When the BOD or a committee is discussing investigations or incidents because the person is requesting a rating or membership back, the gallery is cleared and only the BOD members are privy to the information. The person accused can come in and speak, bring in witnesses, etc. But the entire process is done behind closed doors so everyone speaks freely.

That is why no official word will come from USPA or a BOD member, they are bound by the confidentiality clause. Interestingly, that may mean Rich can't come here and speak, maybe he is bound by confidentiality on his own incident.....

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edited for clarity

DSE

Putting a man in the modern-day equivalent of a town square stock so that people can throw rotten vegetables at him isn't enough to satisfy the masses.

I've got nothing more of value to add once it's been said that facts and truth don't matter.

First sentence: remember, Rich isn't a regular member, he is the guy that helps decide if another member keeps their ratings/membership after an incident/infraction. Will he be able to do his job as effectively since this occurred? Will the system be as effective? Do we wait to find out?

Second sentence: What I would like is some facts and truth to be told to me by those who know them. Instead, after initial reports of the incident, everything has become hush hush. Some people are privy to inside info, others aren't. Okay, then the rest of us get to speculate until someone comes out and clears the air.

This isn't complicated. A guy hit a person in the spectator area while he was flying his fully-functioning parachute. Is there a penalty for that? In most cases I would say no, but this isn't your average doofus with more balls than brains. This is the guy that decides who gets to keep flying when they screw the pooch.

This thread title is wrong, it's not a cover up, it's a total screw up from the get go. Screwed up landing, screwed up response by USPA, screwed up moves by some BOD members, more screw ups by those involved. And it just becomes an indictment of all those involved! Me included.

More than one BOD member reads this forum including Rich, and staff members from USPA read it also. They know we are unhappy and want to know things, several have messaged me during this time.

Every incident I have been involved in, I have tried to provide the most facts in as timely a fashion as possible. It may take a few days, but I posted sometimes very difficult to write passages because the easiest way to squelch rumors and innuendo is to get here and post first-hand facts. Poster may throw a few rocks at you, but most just want to know what happened and why. They want to know it will not happen to them or to one of the friends because no one changed the situation.

I don't want Rich in some stockade, I want to know it will not happen again. Ever. Anywhere. Anyone.

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DSE

Would your opinions be swayed if proof existed of who sent the original "anonymous" email?
Asked differently, what would it take for you to step back and take a concerned/factual vs angry/uninformed view, of the entire situation?

Would you be more angry if you were to learn the situation is being manipulated?

Who sent what email is immaterial to the real issue here: The Chair of the Safety and Training Committee through his own actions injured a person on the ground. Rich has been vilified so much here, and that is unfair, but the Safety and Training committee as a whole asks members, and especially instructors, to be more professional in appearance and behavior.

Anger isn't the word, it's disappointment. Disappointed with Rich, how this was handled, Sherry, and everyone involved. This could have been a real opportunity for USPA to show the membership that the BOD was going to set the bar for professional behavior, set a standard for taking responsibility for actions, live up to the expectations the membership has of its leadership to truly lead.

Instead this has devolved into politics and finger pointing.

This whole incident along with some of the recent changes to BSR's, has devalued my time I served on the BOD, and will probably mean I won't run again. If someone truly wants to serve the membership, be an instructor, coach, or SnTA.

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airtwardo

***No fault in Rich's action....

that's awesome, however that same person(Rich Winstock) will take away someone else's rating for doing same thing.

Has that happened?

I know for a fact yes- he has been instrumental in the removal of ratings and membership for lesser injuries.

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I teach several canopy courses a month to all experience level jumpers. The teaching and tacit approval of butt landings in AFF leads to more serious issues later in your career, if you are lucky. If you are unlucky, it leads to a debilitating injury early on.

Simple facts. Most people can take about four inches of compression in their ass (give or take a few inches) before spinal compression occurs. You legs can give you (again, on average) about 18 inches of compression before they run out of room. Your legs are meant to be landed on, your butt is meant to be sat on.

If you are landing with your legs in a slalom water ski position (one in front of the other, slightly offset) you are best prepared for running out a landing, or compressing at the knees to absorb some impact, and if the impact is too great, sliding on one hip (similar to a baseball slide). You can spread out the force of sliding on the entire leg, protect your spine, and pop up at the end.

The single biggest mistake most jumpers make is when they flare, they throw their legs out in front of themselves, putting their feet waaaayyyyy out in front of the center of mass. Unless all conditions are right, your center of mass will stay behind your feet, forcing you to butt land. They don't put all the wheels of a 747 in the front for a reason.....

Take a good, quality class, learn to save your spine and your ass.

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wan2doit

Starting at 16 could cause a major distraction to your education which will possibly be a major determining factor on how much money u can make so as to skydive throughout your future life.

Not that u can't make good money w/o a good education but it helps most average people.

And starting at 26 could be a major distraction to your work, causing you to get fired. Starting at 36 could be a major distraction to your marriage causing you to get divorced. Starting at age 46 could be a major distraction to you family causing your kids to hate you because you are spending their college tuition money. Starting at at 56 could be a major distraction to your retirement plans making it so you have to work longer. Starting at at 66 could be a major distraction to your retirement making it so you miss too many shuffleboard games....

Go jump and decide if the thrill of jumping is worth disrupting your life as you know it.

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JayhawkJumper

I will say that throwing cards out of the back of a C-130 is about one of the most fun things I've done with a rig on…

Like the ultimate game of "52 pickup?"

Or did you mean cars?

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Apparently, Rich was not swooping at the time of the incident. This was merely an accident.

Sorry for any confusion this caused.

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DSE

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Would an S&TA lose their rating for doing this?

An S&TA dropped an improperly-rigged flag weight through the roof of a house less than a year ago, nearly hitting (read=killing) an infant.

No change in rating.

An S&TA struck and injured an NBC cameraman with an 18' flag on a stadium demo.

An S&TA swooped National Guard soldiers on a stadium demo, injuring himself and minor injury to the National Guardsman.

No change in rating.

Non-S&TA (organizer) warned about a likely incident on a bigway. True to warning, a fatality occurred.
Non-S&TA (instructor) warned about a likely incident on a low-time jumper.
True to warning, a fatality occurred.

Non-S&TA (Organizer) was found to have Photoshopped a State Record. USPA had already ratified the record, issued certificates. 9 months later the record was quietly rescinded with no commentary as to why the rescission occurred.

All of the above qualify for Article 1-6. All occurred in the last 18 months.
In the above situations (AFAIK) no Article 1-6 was initiated. In the case of Winstock, at least two (I've heard rumor of a third) have been initiated.

To specifically answer your question, it already appears that this instance has gone well beyond what Joe Jumper would face.

While you were on the board, there were *many* others just as, if not more egregious, but no Article 1-6 was opened. I specifically requested two Article 1-6's to be enacted; both were denied during that period. Both involved fatalities. Even in the face of dead bodies "joe jumper" didn't get investigated, let alone a slap on the hand.

Okay. I guess this is just business as usual.... Never mind.

Sorry Rich, I thought you were getting away with something, but apparently this is just how its done.

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Rather than fight about he said she said, let's look at the facts in play here.

Rich swooped a demarcated spectator area and caused significant injuries to another person.

If you look up in the USPA Governance Manual, Section 1-6: Disciplinary Actions, under 1-6.4 B "Any USPA member shall be guilty of an offense justifying the imposition of the penalties set forth in the USPA Governance Manual Section 1-6.4.C (below) who-

.....
3. While engaging in any phase of skydiving, is so grossly negligent in his conduct or acts as to imminently imperil his fellow skydivers or aircraft or persons or property on the ground, or wantonly disregards the safety of himself or other persons

4. Engages in any conduct as a skydiver which a person of reasonable prudence would anticipate as being likely to bring public contempt upon himself or herself, or upon skydivers, or upon USPA
.....

So, if this was Joe Jumper, would a RD start a 1-6 action and would that be appropriate? Does being on the BOD/Chair of S&T make the jumper more or less answerable for their actions? Would an S&TA lose their rating for doing this?

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love2drop

Student here, I currently have medical insurance through Florida Blue but it does not cover skydiving. My agent doesn't have any insurance companies that will. \Is anyone aware of a company or organization that offers major medical or accident insurance to skydivers? Is it possible to purchase insurance that only covers you for skydiving and nothing else? Like a supplement to my existing medical. I live in Florida.

It really scares me that my insurance wont cover me if there should ever be an event.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Ask to see the specific rider that states its not covered. I have never heard of someone denied medical treatment or insurance because of jumping.

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billvon

>As for Rich's mistake - he made a mistake. Everyone criticizing him has never
>made a mistake while jumping, right?

?? Not at all. I've made plenty of mistakes. They have cost me places on bigway record attempts, gotten me grounded and cost me a lot of money over the years. I have paid these penalties as part of the cost of learning - even though I have never put anyone in the hospital as a result of a mistake I made. As a skydiver I expect there to be consequences to my actions.

>SO FEW members actually vote, so it would be REALLY EASY to get organized
>and get the board changed. If you DIDN'T VOTE for the board, then you have
>absolutely NO RIGHT to complain.

Most of the board are good people, people I have worked with and (often) voted for. I've talked to several of them and they are also surprised as to how this worked out. A few aren't.

Dennis McGlynn made one mistake that caused no injuries. He was banned for life from USPA. So it appears USPA has a zero-tolerance policy.... if it ain't one of their own.

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DSE

Spectators plural?
This is news, different from the other documents I've seen on this incident, different than what I've been told by more than one person, and different than what the injured person's partner has written/posted.

It seems like there is a lot of unknown information now floating out there that wasn't part of the USPA investigation?

I'm still waiting on Doug_Davis to share his inside knowledge or evidence that this isn't a one-off.

Doesn't matter if it is one spectator or ten thousand, it was bad.

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guineapiggie101

It was just about GoPro recording times. I ended up getting the answer from a friend.

I thought it was about the Concrete Rebound Hammer!

Or a faux Canadian ID.

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theforkguy

Yeah, I probably should have just not said anything and just kept my damn mouth shut since the real experts in this case (the DZO, USPA, the manufacturers) have all said I was blowing this out of proportion. But since I was fired by this DZ, I feel completely justified in saying anything I want. I don't need to sully my reputation since I can hide behind the internet, just other peoples'!

FIFY

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diablopilot

***+1! You can tell the 3 types of staff jumpers by what they work out when they stand up. The "Neck rub" Cameraman's salute, the "Back Stretch" Tandem Salute, and the "Arm Spin/Shoulder Roll" of the AFFI. One day they realize that the fun has gone out of what they do and that there are other ways to make a living. Hopefully, they just take a break and go back to making some casual fun jumps but a lot them just walk off into the sunset.

I have all three. Am I screwed?

You are getting the fourth: the pilot salute. You stand up and rub your butt from sitting in the cockpit all day with the FAA and DZO up your ass.

And yes, you are screwed!

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