JeffSkydiver

I jumped with a yellow hockey helmet like that in 1981. Don't know what happened to it. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

LOVED your video! Thanks for posting it. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

In the U.S., as well as in the U.K., from which most of U.S. criminal law finds its origin, a criminal act requires "mens rea," which means criminal intent. Criminal intent can be inferred from the surrounding circumstances. Example, if you shoot a rifle into a passing train just for the fun of it, without specific intent to harm or kill anyone, yet the bullet does strike someone in the train, criminal intent to harm or kill the human: WOULD PROBABLY NOT be found if the train were a freight train and you shot into a boxcar since boxcars usually haul freight, not humans. If you harmed or killed the hobo in the boxcar, and you had no idea that there was a hobo in there, you would probably not be criminally liable for "intentionally" harming or killing the hobo. The law would infer that you did not intend to harm or kill a human. You would be criminally liable for a whole host of other crimes, including involuntary homicide: involuntary manslaughter or felony murder (2nd degree murder). WOULD PROBABLY be found if the train were a passenger train and you fired into a passenger car. From the surrounding circumstances the law would infer that by firing into a passenger car, you intended to harm or kill a human, and being that is exactly what happened, criminal liablitly for "intentional" homicide, either 3rd degree murder or voluntary manslaughter would attach. Extrapolate that example into the present facts and try to predict what a jury would conclude in this case. Just a little exercise from your friendly skydiving law professor, jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Thanks Jim, Bill was always a good guy. I'll bet he was a natural at tandems. Maybe he'll stop by dz.com eventually. Too bad the USPA doesn't publish a directory. Thanks again, jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

I am happy that some dzo's have published a warning so to speak to the public so they know they are coming at their own risk - or a warning to skydivers with families to know what you are in for at THAT dz: "Socially, a drop zone is like a bar where people jump instead of drink. We sometimes use general language filled with references to concepts and events that children might not be ready for. We talk about anything frankly without censorship. Without a parent immediately present to explain, a kid is in danger of misunderstanding the context or the content." Without that warning, however, how is the public supposed to know what to expect and know not to bring kids - even to the spectator areas? They wouldn't know. In that case, should we not be respectful? And if they wonder into areas where only skydivers should be, should they not be respectful too and realize it's none of their business what language the skydivers are using? I think so, I think all has been said that I can say. Call me a dinosaur, old fashioned, old fogie, I plead guilty. To all of you, if we should ever meet, I will treat you with the utmost respect, as I try to do with everyone. I hope to see you in the sky. How about a jump where I'm the base and everyone flies in and flips me off, swears at me etc., that would be a riotessly funny cap on this whole thing. And after I send the kids home, I'll buy the beer and join in on the "No Sh_ _" stories. Thanks for all your posts, jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Goatboy, You and I agree 100%. Well put. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Wrongway, I really appreciate your thoughtful and considerate posts. I sense your sensitivity to the issue. I do my best to keep my kids out of places I know have elements that are not good for them. I do not feel that the spectator area and restaurant of a DZ NECESSARILY falls into the category of "not good for kids." If I know in advance that a particular DZ is not "family friendly" I won't go. I'm not crusading to change the world or DZ's. If the DZ is open to the public - in the public places of the DZ, and as long I do not know otherwise, I expect my family will be treated with common courtesy. That's not extremely unreasonable. Thanks so much, jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Jay, I agree with you. I should not be able to tell a club or anyone or anything else I do not own or control how to do things. I'll do like you said, vote with my feet. Nonetheless, to me - maybe not you - to me the term is offensive. I don't care if they change it or not. Doesn't concern me. But to me, it is offensive. Thanks for your post, jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Acme: BINGO! That's my only point. Spectators and family members in the spectator area and other "public" areas, restaurant etc., ought to be treated with common courtesy. Anywhere else on the DZ - do what you will! Thanks, jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Wrong way, I see your point. Do you see mine? Use this hypothetical: The non-skydiving public is aware that someone can go to a DZ and do a tandem. Maybe they are at a nearby hotel, there's a brochure, whatever. Nowhere in the brochure or otherwise are they made aware that many, many skydivers believe a DZ is an adult playground, etc etc as has been described in this thread. They show up - then entire family. They are there at the "invitation" of the DZO who advertised for the public to come. With me so far? They are there. Without any warning they find themselves surrounded in F bombs. They do not know it, but underlying the use of the profanity is the many, many skydivers' opinion that "you are on my turf now, a DZ, if you don't like the language, get the F out and take your F'n kids with you?" This is no place for families or kids. How would they know that???? As far as parenting my own kids, I don't have a problem. I don't take them to places I know are inappropriate for them: bars, etc etc. Even at the DZ, I will usher them away from adults having "spirted" conversations long before I will interupt the skydivers' fun. I'm responsible for my kids and I am good at that. No one has yet, however, addressed the fact that some parts of the DZ are open to the public - people coming for tandems, for instance who have never been to a DZ. And also my family. In those public places - in those public moments - in the restaurant for example, should the "environment" be any different than in the packing tent or the skydivers only areas? As far as when the jumping is done and the beers come out - at that point the DZ is "closed." The public is gone - or should be or risk seeing and hearing anything. I agree - end of the day, anything goes. I'm talking about the customers in the store lined up to sign up for tandems. In line are other skydivers putting money on their account. What about there? No courtesy required? Just a thought, jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Ian, I only disagree with your assertion that DZs are automatically R rated places. It's up to the DZO. If the DZO wants an R rated environment, fine, I have no problem with that. But that does not make every DZ R rated. I'm just sensitive on this because of the examples. I've seen entire extended families go to the DZ because one of them is doing a tandem. Do we have to say it's just like the whole family decided to go to an R rated movie? How would they know that before this, their first venture onto a DZ? Do you really mind not dropping F bombs within earshot of grandma and grandpa waiting for their grandson to make his tandem? With their other younger grandchildren beside them? Do you really believe "too bad for them... their on my turf now?" Curious, jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Dave, I agree. DZ's are privately owned as opposed to being government institutions. That has nothing to do however with whether the DZ is open to the "public." "Public places" means open to the public; the term has nothing to do with ownership. Take Walmart for instance or any other store: the stockholders own the store, not the government, but they are "public places" ie., open to the public. At the DZ I regularly go to, the restaurant is open to the public, so is the spectator area and the store etc. Those are public places - skydivers and nonskydivers alike. The DZO's office, manifest etc are not open to the public. No one can force my family to watch inappropriate movies etc. Using profane language in "public places" on the DZ or not, is forcing profanity upon them. I honestly believe what skydivers say or do on the plane, boarding area, packing area, training rooms etc etc. hey have a nut. Say it all. In the "public" areas of the DZ, restaurant, etc., where the public includes (with the open arms of the DZO) non skydivers and families, then I think what you would or would not shout out of a loud speaker next to an elementary school is a real good guide to appropriateness. Best to you, jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Brie, I do not disagree with you at all, believe it or not. I agree that none of us have the right to force others to conform to what we think is decent or correct behavior. That cuts both ways. That's why we have private property rights. It's the DZO's call - it's their property. If your DZO wants an environment that I find offensive, it's my responsibility to go elsewhere. If another DZO wants an environment that others would find too restrictive on profanity etc., it's the skydiver's responsibility to go elsewhere. My main point is DZ's are not automatically and in every case, just by the fact that it is a DZ, a place where profanity and sexual play are free to prevail. It's not up to skydive customers, me or anyone else, to say here is what must or must not occur here. It is up to the DZO. A skydiver at a DZ, just because he or she is a skydiver, does not have the automatic right to go to any DZ he or she chooses and use language inappropriate to families. That said, no one I have ever encountered has felt intruded upon by curbing their language around children or little old ladies. When politely asked to do so, I have never met resistence when I have very courteously asked someone to adjust their language around my family. I mean, it's much more inconvenient for an entire family to get up and leave in the middle of a meal in a restaurant than it is for one young man to stop loudly saying "F" every other word at the next table for the next 20 minutes or so while we finish a meal. No one has ever refused or appeared offended. There is always a difference between what is legal vs. what is right or wrong, or appropriate or innapropriate. Legality alone is not the judge of decency. For instance, there is no law against intentionally sneezing on someone else's food at a restaurant, but it just aint right. There is no law against backing your butt up to someone's ear while they are eating and blowing a fart - but it just aint right. (funny perhaps). We have sunk into moral relativism: "there is no objective right and wrong; everyone is free to choose what they want." The flaw in that argument remains the same. By choosing to use profanity in public loud enough to be heard by children, one has forced his or her view of right and wrong on the listener and deprived the listener of the very right the speaker hold sacred. oh well. DZ's are all a little bit different - thank God. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Where did you get that excerpt from? Whatever the source, it does not nor cannot prescribe what the social climate is or should be for every dropzone. I am sure it is not a BSR on dz etiquette. You refer to "your" dropzone. You have a right to run your dz anyway you want. If you and I are customers at someone else's dropzone, then we are not at "your" dropzone. The same social rules apply. Talk about anything you want using any language you desire. When however you are in public, then you have a responsiblity to act with decency. It's called maturity. I am a skydiver so I have every right to be at a dz at the dzo's discretion and every right to bring my family. That makes me and them the "public." If you own a dz and do not want me or my family there, because you know we will be offended by the language you use, just let me know. Until then, you do not own the dz and you cannot unilaterally decide that I and my family are out of place or unwelcome there and that we must put up with profanity and rudeness just because you have decided that a dz is an inappropriate place for decent people and their families. One step further, at the dz that I do not own but make nearly all my skydives, the owner regularly brings his son and has always welcomed families with children. Are you saying he is doing it all wrong? If you try, eventually you will be able to build a vocabulary strong enough that you will be able to express yourself just as or even more vividly without resort to profanity. "F" is just a word. It's a word that our society deems profane. If you choose to use it, go ahead. If you are in public, you will be offending people and polluting the environment of a child. Skydiving attracts all sorts of people. Many however are young, rebellious alpha males who must go against the grain of civilized society, break rules and otherwise be the bad boys. For most it's a passing phase. I wish you well, jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

My 2 cents: It is inappropriate. Not just for the way it refers to women, but for the whole idea and the profanity. I don't have to be a woman to be offended at this. I take my family to the DZ. The DZ isn't a frat house or a biker bar or an afterhours club or a hunting cabin or a poker game or a pool hall. It's a place where people go who like to skydive and their guests and spectators. I do not want to hear the F word myself, and especially do not want the F bombs around my family. At the DZ there often are older folks and families just watching. Skydivers standing around or walking by talking in F bombs and other profanity is just not right. When I hear it and know my kids or wife or others are around, I say something to the skydiver. He/she has always said "oops" I'm really sorry. Skydiving is exciting and in expressing ourselves it's easy to lose control of the tongue in the heat of real good story. But we must try. What people say to each other outside of others' hearing is their own business. I'm not the profanity police. But when they litter the auditory zone of others, then it becomes the business of those others. All that being said, it is shameful that a DZ would allow the use of or the IMPLIED use of profanity in naming its events. We shouldn't have to explain what the term means to our children or our mother - nor lie and pretend it means "fly." To those who cannot seem to express themselves in more acceptable language and those who cannot name an event without using or implying profanity, I say, GROW UP! Just my 2 cents. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Thanks for your post. Maybe we'll hear from others. I hope he is still jumping. He was like an Eagle in the air. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Anyone know/knew Bill Estes? Had a D license and JM/Instructor ratings in 1981. We were in the Air Force together stationed at MacDill in Tampa. On the job one day he started talking to me about skydiving. The next weekend I went for my first jump - static line - at small DZ near Zhills, Pilot Country Estates. For awhile he was jumping with Arch Deal for the Miller beer demo team. Haven't seen nor heard of Bill since I got out of Air Force in 1981. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

I had the legstraps as tight as I could get them. The whole rig just didn't fit exactly right. The 3 ring releases were more on the top and going to the back of my shoulders than on the front. I was safe, just not in the same comfort zone. One jump: it was a great skydive, but one was enough. I have no trouble getting into or out of the new legstraps; it's just different. Back in the day, my Wonderhog with the Stratostar and Navy round reserve, I would flip the rig up over my head, onto my back and reach between my legs for the legstraps and hook them together. I don't know what the quick ejectors were/are. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Is that the right name for the "old" legstraps? I returned to the sport in December after 23 years off. I see that the legstraps are different. I assume there must have been a problem with the old ones - which IMO were much easier to put on. Just for my info, please tell me what the problem was. I assume they opened and people died. I would like a little more detail - incidents etc. When I jumped with them 23 years ago, and everyone else around me, I never saw a problem. I have no intention to return to them. Last week however, I went to a DZ I hadn't been to before. I rented a student rig. Had the old leg straps. I asked about them and the packer/rigger said they are still very common on student gear. It's ok to kill students? lol Upon opening, I thought my helmet strap had somehow tightened itself. While under canopy I kept trying to fiddle with the helmet strap to stop it from cutting into my neck, right under my chin. Then I finally realized it was the chest strap!! I only made one jump :) Ok, so please give me the long story on the old leg straps. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Congratulations. Your photo here on DZ.com is a bit dark, so I will suppose that when I visited Palatka last Sunday afternoon, the 20th, and made a jump one or two loads before the sunset load, we were on the load together. After that load (maybe it was the sunset load), I watched a load land and a young woman (maybe you?) made what I consider a perfectly executed textbook, Scott Millierish, pattern-flying, tippy-toe landing dead center in the main landing area. As she (you?) walked past, I congratulated her on such exquisite canopy control. Then the other woman on the load (Tammi?) said, "she's really catching on, isn't she?" That was the first indication I had that she (you?) was new to the sport. If in fact that was you, again, nice work. If the rest of your skills are on par with what I saw of your canopy control on that one jump, then kudos to you for your hard work and concentration. (A nod to your instructors as well!). I hope to see you when I visit Palatka again. In the meantime, I'll be hanging at Deland because my wife just yesterday completed her AFF ground school! I'm so thrilled for her and for both of us. Of course, with the crappy weather, she hasn't jumped yet, but we're hoping for a few jumps this week for her. We'll be jumping Saturday too. If you come to Deland, let me know. I'm there several weekdays and maybe once on weekends (I HAVE to get a real life someday!). I can't wait to take her to Palatka to meet all the folks at Florida's (America's?)(the World's?) family friendly DZ. Congrats to you! jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

TOILET LANDING I once landed with my face in a toilet. I was jumping a PC in the old days (1981). There were 3 of us. The other 2 were jumping squares and were instructors. They had taken me up to introduce me to 3-ways. When we opened, I saw them hauling ass under their squares toward the DZ. I was at least a mile away looking for a place to land. Along the country road below me, there were houses with large backyards and apparently no fences. When I landed in some guy's yard, which I could then see was strewn with junk, I landed a little to hot to stand up the PC and went down on my knees. My head pitched forward and down right into an old toilet that had been discarded into the yard. Of all the million places my face might have been pitched into, it ended up in a toilet. BTW, the custom then was the jump plane hung around the out jumper and circled above him a few times so those on the DZ would know where to drive. By the time I got my face out of the toilet, my canopy gathered up and walked to the road, the truck was just pulling in to pick me up. THE TOILET JUMP jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

From what I understand, first man down applies to each particular landing area. If there are several landing areas, unless they are right smack abutting each other, then go to a different area. I jumped at a new DZ yesterday. I was not the first nor the last down. I did however land at a much bigger field not far from where everyone else was landing. All went well. Usually there are more than one suitable fields in which to land. We don't all HAVE to land close enough to impress the waiting female tandem customers. Pick a field and land into the wind. If it's not the same field where others have just landed then pick another. There's no shame in walking or being picked up - with a truck or golfcart; don't try too hard to get picked up by an ambulance. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Congratulations John. It was nice seeing you at the DZ today. Let's do some 2 ways like we wrote about on here a month or so ago. See ya out there soon I hope. jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Randy, Glad you're ok. 2 things: Once you turn on final, you should always have your feet and knees together with knees slightly bent, all the way until you stop. Second, absolutely no PLF whatsoever. Why not? jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

Hey folks, How would I know whether a pair of sport goggles are or are not suitable for skydiving? I now own a pair I bought at the DZ, but at Walmart yesterday I noticed they sell sport goggles in several styles and with prescription lens they're only $80.00. I would like to get them, but how do I know before jumping them whether they are suitable for our sport versus racketball or whatever? jt * Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.