YISkyDive

I don’t think this case needs a profile fill. This gent put out a good(in my opinion, please feel free to disagree) theory, and obviously it has nothing to do with his experience. Agree or disagree as you wish but there is 0 methodic teaching here, so experience is not necessary. I know 16 year olds that have never jumped that can tell me what “was a good approach” and what “was a bad approach”, and tell me more about swooping than the person that initiated the turn. Theory and experience do not exist hand in hand. Again, not being combative, just demonstrating the point i perosnally believe. Feel free to take it for what its worth.

If you get injured before you get the experience, you obviously have Nothing to rely on. This equation pertains more to a swooper with little experience. Why did the gent. pound in, in S.Africa? He could have relied on experience to save him but obviously he didn’t realize he was low, until too late. Worst off, he was not that low, Perfect example of where this theory comes into play. A certain amount of events just tipped him off on the negative side and induced injury. Any beginner swooper faces statistics, mathematics, and physics. The world [natural world, the thing we use to enjoy skydiving] functions only on these principals. No more, no less. Experience is ONLY developed when people get past the first set of swoops. Even then experienced people can get injured too, for what ever reason. That’s fine if we hook high, but what if a beginner swooper is hooking his usual height, but is low and doesn’t realize until Extremely late, too late to save? A beginner pilot would be taken by surprise, and, if they don’t have that "E X P E R I N C E" to rely on, we add another thread to the long, sad incident reports. I think you strike up a good point, here. But if you are NOT educated on your approach (calculated) you’re bound to kiss the earth. Set up heights can change with degree of turn, heat, turbulence.. Obviously we NEED to calculate. Before I practice my approaches, I know for Darn sure where/ when/ how I want to be, before I even board the aircraft. Can my ideal set up change, sure. Must I know how to adjust in the air, Yes. But a basic calculation is extremely useful/ and important. I know when I go to the DZ and have down time, I’m reading notes I took from coaches, B.Germains book, and other useful documentation bits of documentation. Calculation is necessary; personally, to say other wise could direct one into an area of danger. I'm not trying to be combative by any means, please do not take this as an attack. But it is a rebuttal to those that argue against this theory. I believe in this statistical approach to swooping, especially as a beginner pilot myself. It at least demonstrates that even if you do everything right, you can still get hurt.. And we all have seen that case here or there over the last couple of years.

Just ordered mine too

Thanks for all the usefull help gents! I think i am decided on going for the Foretrex 201.. All i really need is a logger that can do realtime logging.. so the Vista seems over kill since im not concered with terrain relation. If anyone has any comments on their foretrex 201s id love to hear em. I do plan on wearing it as a wrist watch. Also do you turn the unit on, on the ground? Like before boarding? Thanks guys, I appreciate the help -Dave

OK guys- Sorry to make Another GPS thread but I have completely confused myself. I currently wish to take a GPS into freefall for canopy control logging, and my smoke pants project. I know wingsuiters have been taking GPS units into freefall so I have done a search but managed to mangle my poor brain more than help it. The goals of my project are to learn the vertical (accomplished w. Neptune) and horizontal speeds of different maneuvers above pattern entry altitudes. Its more or less for fun and reference, but I do not know what unit to get and more so what software is gonna assault my wallet. The second goal is to track a regular track dive, jumpsuit with booty dive, and two different smoke pants I have made to see what speeds I am reaching. My videos show an immense difference in ground speed between the four, so I wanted to some hard figures to work with. I want a GPS that can act as a stand alone unit. I wish not to take my pocket PC into freefall for obvious reasons. My current plan is to mount the recording unit onto my leg but I’ve heard other mounting positions are recommended first. I also wish to use the unit to record my ski/ snowboard top speeds. I’m assuming the unit wingsuiters use can do this. Thanks for your time guys, id really appreciate any help, and sorry about yet another thread. The search confused me more than helped. -dave.

Hey guys, I have been unable to get the january 2005 skydive magazine, and i was wondering if anyone has a copy (or could explain) what the article in there says about swooping, and lightly loaded parachutes. Two diffrent people have refrenced me to this, but i have been unable to get a hold of it. thanks for anyones help dave.

I have another jumper intrested, So we need 2 more skydivers! Thanks for lookin -dave.

Lol, thats just my personal experience, and yah. I really want to jump hard this summer, and dedicate time to 4-way. I work on a DZ as a packer and (to be) coach. I work on the DZ full time. I also have a part time camera man, which also can act as a coach for us.. He is a very knowledgeable RW gent. I dont know how realistic it is, but, i would like to dedicate one day or so a week to a 4-way team. Those are our skydiving training days, and once we have four people we can establish all the details. thanks for anyone interested.. and just looking. -dave.

N/A

hey guys, i was wondering if any one would like to start a southern, PA, NJ novice 4 - way team. I am an RW skydiver with 112 jumps, and 2.5 - 3 hours of tunnel time. I have no idea how the 4-way rules and regs work but if anyone is interested or wants to help explain the basics, id be very interested. I jump about 15 to 20 times a week, so i am very current. So far this season i have made 30 of those 112 skydives, and 75 of those skydives are full alti. true RW skydives. Thanks guys, dave. EDIT: posted in the wrong forum, if a moderator could move id be appreciative. Sorry.

I dont know of how many of you know, or if this has ever been posted, but REEVOLUTION.TV ( http://www.reevolution.tv/main.php) has some great espisodes on BASE jumping and wingsuit flying. episode 28 is an awsome combinataion of all the elements of aviation and base jumping, it features Chris Muller too... R.I.P 24 is Felix crossing the channel 18 is AWSOME norway footage. EDIT: not norway Baffin Island (arctice circle) enjoy. (sorry if this a repost, I have'nt seen it, but hey who knows) -dave.

Ian, a testing system would not bad bad at all.. but how do we test people? Someone needs to be qualified to test them, no? Or would it be a paper and pencil test? I don't know how a test a lone could help, i'm kinda missing it a little. Would you mind explaining what you mean? It can be via PM or here, im kinda intrested in the idea, i'm just not exactly sure how it could be set up to work. -dave.

thanks for the advice Ian!(and others) yah, my dad warned me of this and said no matter how good one gets, never ever try to go all out at location you are not completly familar with because thats how you can get hurt really easy, due to the diffrences. I'm not using the noodles yet (mostly because of what happened at ASC.) I'm using the accuracy circle to kinda swoop into. I know when i came from florida, and jumped in PA, i was a little funky on accuracy for about 3 or 4 jumps because everything was different. thanks for the heads up all! -dave

thanks for the reply Ian, yah, i want to use it as a tool, not as a dependent item. I just want to learn my site picture more. I use the hangar, trees, and the accuracy circle, they work well... but sometimes im still a little off. I am pretty set on getting it. Thanks again -dave.

After doing some searching, i found a great amount of info on the Neptune units, but i still am at a loss on two things.. one, can the unit be heard, under canopy mounted on your wrist with a full face helmet with the visor open? i use a full face, and the the Z1 free fly style helmet interchanably. the second question is, does the unit have enough accuracy to learn site picture for highets of 100, 150, and 400 feet? i currently start my double front approches around 100, but i obviously am starting high and low.. i want to use the under canopy beeps for leaving holding area, turn onto base, and then beginning the manuver. - is this a good use of the beeps? or not so good? any thoughts would be helpful, i am pretty much set on getting it as a visual alit., but i was wondering other opinions of people when using it in canopy mode. -dave

I by no means mean to doubt you at all Jeb. You are a role model of mine with the work of yours i have seen. Simply amayzing things. France and NYC are my favorites.. But arnt there physics limitations with landing the wing suit? Like literally limitations that cannot be over come? Even if you land with a close to zero ft/s decent speed, some how all that forward speed has to be relieved with out you injuring and or damaging yourself. I know landing on a ski slope of powder wouldnt be a bad choice, because of the relative angles.. but i've seen skiers that tumbled all the way down flipping and twisting and some of those peoples ACLs didnt look to happy. Again, by no means am I questioning you, you've got a hell of a lot better resume than 100 jumps and 1 yr in the sport, im merely curious because of heard a lot of crazy fact/ fiction statments on your attempt as well as other peoples discussions. no disrespect ment

I think that no one should deny water training. Every jumper at one point could be in a position to need. It has saved lives. I think some just believe that a canopy course based around fundemtals would greatly help reduce the injury rate. This year has been insane with incidents, but at the same time as i went back and read them it seems that people getting hurt are either A) experinced and something went wrong or B)inexperienced and getting some form of coaching. only one incident i found (swooping related i think) was someone that was barking up the wrong tree and shouldnt have been doing what he was. the bigger question is could a canopy control course help elminate a students or parachutists want to bury the toogle low to the ground. Aside from swooping, it seems that many deaths/ incidents happen from the notourious(sp?) low turn. how does a body like USPA teach that? It obviously is not stressed enough currently because so many incidents happen do to low turns. AFF doesnt talk about flying. AFF, at least mine, uses the shoulder highet / hip height toogle placement rule, but thats only for a little. People need to know how to pilot their parachutes like they drive their cars, input based on the situation not based on algorythim. No body can sue USPA for how they manuver their parachute, but USPA may need to find a better education platform to help with educating people on the performance of a modern ram air parachute and what its capabilites are in the hands of both a good and bad pilot. -dave

I would hate to see his PC get caught in his burble... lowest pull i think ive seen yet.

haha, no.. for a second i had a diffrent post.. i thought something else was being said.. and wrote a "strong" reply for a few moments. Then i realized what he ment.. and ammended it. dave

errr completly read that wrong. Im sorry Im really sorry. Please disreagurd what was said in this post slot earlier.. I read that comptely wrong. Did not by any means mean anything against you Dave.. i thought you where saying something else. My bad dave

Ok, this is a complex problem with no easy solution. But what I would see as a fix would be for USPA to set up another instruction rating. Just beyond coach would be a canopy control specialist. Same thing 3 days of class and evaluation jumps. These coaches would understand all aerodynamics involved with swooping and canopy flight, as well as teach students how to “fly” their parachutes. Not just drift around. This rating would give the canopy control specialist the right to the following... 1) Institute a manditory course for all canopy pilots interested in high performance landings below 400 jumps( or what ever jump number that is proper) 2) Educate the students in a 2 2.5 or 3hr sessions that will educate them on ALL canopy control basics. Flat turns, Braked Turns, riser maneuvers, toggle maneuvers and any other form of canopy flight. Primary point is to teach the students about the proper approach to high performance landing. I’m not saying a Germain level class, but damn well full of information to give everyone an understanding of not just “how”, but “why” 3) Canopy control instructors can evaluate student(learning swoopers) as well as give them feed back on their performance and sign a self tracked progression card. To keep cost down, no mandatory on field coaching can be instituted, but period review with the student is important, when they are doing their approaches. Something following 50 double front riser approaches 50 90s 50 180s 50 270s off of status 4) This would give the student the right to perform high performance landings in a "educated" form. This simply means that he/she is allowed to do high performance landings at any DZ with a respected certificate or card. Just like some one needs an A license to jump at another DZ, this gives them the right to do HP landings 5) The card should have 2 punch able slots. Follow the yellow card/ red card theory. If a pilot endangers himself or another, depending on the severity of the offense they could get a punch in a single hole, or a double. This means that card is not valid, and the pilot has to either repeat the course, or take the exam again to make sure they understand the issues of safety. If the pilot exceeds 4 punches in a year, then for the remainder of that year they are not eligible to perform high performance landings, because they are obviously a risk. EDIT: card becomes invalid after 2 punches are made. a single card punch means probation 6) No one under 400 jumps can do high performance landings with out the canopy control rating. Those in place that already know how to land, can take the exam, receive their card and be on their way. A BSR would have to be instituted to state that high performance landings are completely unacceptable below the proper jump number. EDIT: the bsr would have to follow that no one under X number of jumps can begin performance landings without the course. a basic jump minium should be set on the level which a student can enter the course. i would think its fair for students that demonstrate good skills to enter 50 to 75 jumps with a B lisence i also think a BSR on wignloading is pointless, because people can kill them selves on anything. Thats not a contralable part of sport reliastically. 7) The course fee would have to be extremely cheep to make sure the most people could act in this, when they are ready. I would presume a 40 dollar fee. The canopy control coach would get X $ per student, the DZ would take half of remaining, and USPA would get the other to help cover the costs of implanting the new system. I do not have a ton of jumps, nor a lot of educational experience beyond being a snowboard instructor. But I am doing my coach course this week, and have read the IRM. Education is the first step to this problem. Professional coaching is not always possible, and that’s why a new form of coach needs to be established.. because as this sport enters the "mainstream" so will swooping. As free style X develops more tricks, maneuvers and other highly hazardous things, people will want to try it. With out a solid skills set people will watch their hopes and dreams get crushed by hard landings. This is just something I’ve personally thought up as a fix. Just my opinion.. and those jump numbers are all basic guesses, I can’t say appropriate numbers because I don’t have the experience. -dave

Also, a big thing with front risers and wind is if you pull them too much, or have a lightly loaded canopy it could cause a collapse. I had my canopy collapse at 300 feet up my first jump of the season because i pulled my front risers down too much in moderate wind. I believe Germain also talks about those dangers as well.. -dave.

haha nice, JR said he wants us there 8am, class is starting at 9. but its to fill out waviers and things like that, so i am sure your coverd.. oh, and they dont ask for ID at the fire do they -dave

Cool Kevin, where are you crashing? on the DZ or in some motel, or at your place? i'm still trying to figure out what i am doing, i'm probably gonna crash in my car/ or a tent. catch ya there man dave oh and did JR say it starts at 9 or 8? i was told 8. beats me? im 2.5 hours away, so ya know.

OK, thanks for the info. -dave