AdamLanes

I'm not sure your comment dignifies a response, but I'll give you an opportunity to explain yourself.

You mean documented and verifiable? Probably a few years ago when 5 deputies kicked in the door of my apartment without a warrant. It makes little difference whether the tax collector actually points a gun at you or not, since the threat is there and is very real. Do you deny that the government collects taxes through the use of coercion?

Bill, is there any ethical or moral reason for the existence of the military in the first place? I can think of only one, to protect the rights of individuals to their life, liberty, and property. So tell me how it makes any sense to use violence or the threat of violence to forcefully collect money from the people that you are supposed to be protecting?

I doubt you will be laughing when the government is pointing their guns at you.

Are you listening to yourself Bill? So you think it is sane (or ethical or moral) for the government to point guns at people in order to force them to pay to keep people from pointing guns at them? Thats ridiculous! And then your excuse is that people won't otherwise pay for something that doesn't directly benefit them? Well why the hell should they?

Okay, but where did all that stuff come from? The corn doesn't exist simply because you want it. All those things must be produced. And why are they produced? It's not because people desire to spend their life in the pursuit of you having the availability of corn. They do it to make a living. Hopefully you are aware that most people work in order to sustain their lives. I don't need to pay for a farm to buy some corn, I don't need to pay for a hospital to buy healthcare, and I don't need to pay for the cellular network to buy a cellphone. People (or groups of people) pay for the farms, hospitals, cell phone networks, etc, because they hope a market exists for the products that they produce with those things, and they expect to make a profit. It is the same thing for defense. The right to liberty is free. The defense of that right may be costly, but it is ludicrous to think that there is any moral or ethical justification for the government to point a gun at me (behind all bureaucracy is a gun pointed at you) to have me pay them to keep people from pointing guns at me!

So then how do you explain all the things that exist that aren't provided for by the government?

Yes, Quade, because in the absence of government those things would cease to exist

This poll is like asking someone how they would like to be murdered. How about the option to not be murdered?

I'm typing this in the hopes that you are sincerely looking for the truth, and not simply an argument. When the government sets a minimum wage, they are effectively making it illegal to employ people who produce a value of less than the minimum wage. Lets say for the sake of argument the government sets the minimum wage at $10 per hour. Now, if you are a successful business owner, you will probably not consider hiring someone who can produce less than $10 per hour of value to your company. Otherwise you will be losing money, and businesses are not run to lose money. If you hire someone for the minimum wage of $10 per hour that only provides $8 of value per hour to your company, then you will be losing $2 for every hour this employee works. Obviously most people who do not provide the value set by minimum wage will become unemployed.

I can't believe you just said that Communist Russia made taxes voluntary!!!! WTF?!?! I'm done here

So you are okay with someone pointing a gun at you, taking your money by force, and spending it on anything they want? Because what is the difference?

No, the person never wanted the thing they are being forced to pay for.

And would you consider it a crime to force someone to pay for something that they do not want?

So are you Bolas advocating the government to initiate violence against me to get what you want?

No, but do you advocate the government pointing a gun at me at the same time?

Maybe you like to have rapists, thieves, and murderers running around your community Billvon, but I for one (and I think I am in the majority) do not. Do you not voluntarily pay for things that you want? Or do you initiate violence, like the government, to get what you want?

Or maybe fires burned more out of control 200 years ago because of the comparative lack of technology.

Do you think there is no incentive to pay voluntarily for the capture of murderers and other criminals in your community? Do you think the police should get paid the same whether they catch the murderer or not? Have you never heard of volunteer fire departments? Would you not be willing to voluntarily pay for fire department services if your house catches fire? Do you just want someone else to pay for it? There can easily be a voluntary type of "insurance" that you can buy for fire department or ems service that will cover the services of the fire department or ems if you call on them.

So tell me, when do you think that the initiation of violence is morally or ethically justified? No, I am opposed to the initiation of violence, and since taxes are collected through the initiation of violence, I am therefore opposed to taxation. The "benefits" that taxes pay for can be ethically paid for with user fees. If you are willing to pay for something, why do you need the government to take the money from you through the threat of violence? Also, the government ends up being a middle man in the transaction that actually increases costs through inefficient bureaucracy. Stealing would be what the government does when they force individuals to pay for things in an unproportional value to what they use or consume. So you do recognize that all individuals have the right to life, correct? And what is life? It is the time you have alive on earth, and how you spend that time, correct? And how do you support your life? You can rely on charity, beg, steal, or work and produce. Would you agree that the only productive way to support your life is to work and produce? Now if you spend your time working and producing in order to support your life, should you not also have control, i.e. ownership, of the property that you produce or work for, in order that you can support your life with said property? Now when the government takes away your property without your voluntary consent , do you see that they are actually taking away a part of your life? *edited for clarification

Do you think the initiation of violence is a moral or ethical means of achieving your goals? Do you think the government is justified in collecting taxes through the threat of violence, since you say you "get things in return." Do you believe you should be able to choose how your money is spent? Do you think democracy is moral or ethical when the majority can vote away the rights of the minority?

That question was meant to be facetious. I don't think it is nearly as high as Hollywood has you believe. Intentionally writing a bad check is more than a mistake. It is fraud and theft. When you are arrested Billvon, will you be making friends in jail? Sitting in your jail cell planning a life of a career criminal? clicky

Yea the United States of America is not a free country. So therefore it should be obvious that there will be a high number of people in jail. People who do not belong in jail are people who have not violated the rights of other individuals. My last post was a response to the article "American Exception Millions Behind Bars" where the author puts using drugs and writing bad checks into the same category of actions. One is a violation of the rights of others, stealing by the fraudulent use of bad checks, and should be a crime. And the other is a voluntary action that, in and of itself, does not affect the rights of others, and therefore should not be a crime. Those are some pretty big assumptions. First if someone is in jail for violating the rights of others then I would argue that they are the antithesis of productive members of society. Also, I wonder what percentage of people in jail are career criminals that are actively networking with other inmates.

When someone intentionally writes bad checks, they are committing fraud and STEALING. Stealing is a violation of rights, and the violation of rights should not be tolerated.