Douva

With a low tolerance for financial risk, finding affordable health insurance and avoiding high physical risk activities in the interim would probably be a bit more sensible. Blues, Dave That's great in theory, Dave, but where do you draw the line? If skydiving is too physical, what about snow skiing? What about playing pickup basketball games? What about roller skating with your kids? Who are we to say how active a lifestyle people with lower incomes should be allowed to lead? I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

You're kidding, right? While their name may not appear on my bill, their costs most certainly do. Yes, there is a slight increase in your medical bills and/or insurance premiums. Again, that's the way the system works. Other people aren't required to have their lives ruined simply because the other option costs you a few dollars more than you would otherwise pay. The alternative to having their life ruined is to pay a few dollars more every month/year in order to keep me from having to pick up the tab. If they make a conscious choice to not pay those premiums, they should no longer have the option of passing the consequences of that decision on to me. That said, I'd wouldn't mind there being a basic healthcare plan offered to low-income people on a sliding scale with the balance of the costs picked up by myself and others who can afford it, be that through taxes or as a condition of running a health insurance company. Speaker's corner anyone? Blues, Dave As long as the hospital is willing to work with the person and develop a payment plan he or she can afford, I agree that making regular payments is the best plan. However, as I said before, if the person finds that the amount of money he or she owes the hospital is keeping him or her from being able to purchase a home (I don't know the laws regarding medical bills and credit reporting; I am speaking hypothetically), or something of that nature, I can understand someone choosing to opt for bankruptcy. I don't think a man who requires emergency brain surgery when he's eighteen-years-old should be told that because of it he can't buy a house for his family when he's 45. Again, I don't know specifically how that type of massive, long-term debt could affect a person; I'm simply suggesting that there are scenarios where bankruptcy is probably the most sensible option for someone faced with medical bills far beyond his or her ability to pay in a single lifetime. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Have you never lived with roommates? Good lord! You make it sound like a Nazi Death Camp. We were discussing sharing a three bedroom house with five other people. I think most people would agree that that's pretty intense. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

You're kidding, right? While their name may not appear on my bill, their costs most certainly do. Blues, Dave Yes, there is a slight increase in your medical bills and/or insurance premiums. Again, that's the way the system works. Other people aren't required to have their lives ruined simply because the other option costs you a few dollars more than you would otherwise pay. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

If you were working 40-60 hours per week as a waitress and only making $12,000 per year, you really should have looked around for a better restaurant. Regardless, you were living a college lifestyle. You were willing to put up with it because you knew things would be better when you graduated. One of the points I keep trying to make is that people who earn that kind of income and don't know if their situations will ever improve are in a different situation. It's a VERY different situation if they have kids. That $2000 per year may be the difference between whether or not that person can replace the burned out transmission in the car he or she uses to get to work. Or it may be the difference in whether or not his or her kids eat. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

To be fair, I think I remember him posting that he's a resident, but I'm not sure about that. Also, I don't think most doctors make all that much money--particularly considering the huge amount of debt from student loans that many have after graduation. Walt Fair enough. I fixed it. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

I re-read your posts and saw a lot of information about how you've cut costs and avoided using credit cards, but I didn't see where you explicitly denied having outside income or debt, and I definitely didn't see any remarks about how long you'd be willing to maintain your current lifestyle. You've claimed that I am digging for something that's not there because I have a chip on my shoulder. If you don't have any outside income or debt and would be willing to continue your lifestyle indefinitely, say so, and you'll shut me up for good. Personally, I suspect you were a little too quick to declare, "I make less than $12,000 per year....So, someone making $20,000-30,000 - hot damn! They can afford insurance," never stopping to consider that your situation is not the same as most people attempting to live indefinitely off an income only marginally above the poverty level. But if I'm wrong, say so. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

What I'm looking for is an answer. You've made numerous posts WITHOUT answering my questions. If you have absolutely no outside sources of income, are incurring no debt, and would willing maintain your current lifestyle indefinitely, quit dodging my questions and say so. If you're not willing to answer those simple questions, nothing you've posted so far carries any weight in this discussion. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

And when they explore those other options, they'll be passing their bills onto others who weren't skydiving without insurance. That's being irresponsible. Blues, Dave Deal with it. There is danger in life. If they weren't hurt skydiving without insurance, they might have been hurt skiing without insurance or playing golf without insurance or walking down an icy street without insurance. It's not like you're going to receive a bill for somebody else's injury. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

I don't think you're lying, but I question whether or not you're considering every factor. Are you saying that you have absolutely no outside sources of income (nobody else is paying any of your bills or living expenses) and that you're not regularly incurring debt (you haven't taken out any loans and/or don't put a little bit on your credit cards each month)? If that's the case, and I suppose it could be, are you living in conditions you would be willing to endure indefinitely, or are you living an impoverished lifestyle, with the understanding that you're situation will improve in a few years when you graduate school and get a good job? After all, this isn't a discussion about struggling to pay for insurance for a couple of years; it's about struggling to pay for it year after year after year, indefinitely. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

It's relatively nobody's fault but your own... Fine, you continue living in your ideal world where people choose to ruin their lives rather than deny owed money to hospitals. The rest of us are going to accept that sometimes bad shit happens and that some very wise people in the U.S. government developed a system a long time ago that grants second chances to people who've had bad shit happen, regardless of who is at fault. And believe it or not, sometimes people are seriously injured without anyone being at fault. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

The reality is that they will never be able to pay the entire debt. That does not mean, though, that they have the right to walk away from it completely. -s If a hospital will work with you, you should continue making payments, if you can. But if the payments are more than you can reasonably afford, or if that debt is going to prevent you from ever being able to own a home, take advantage of the legal systems in place to discharge that debt. I agree that taking bankruptcy is not fare to the hospital, but nobody ever said life is fare. Your failure to repay that debt will have relatively little impact on anyone's life, in comparison to the debt's impact on your life. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Right...cause her motivation to lie is so clear... No, because it's highly improbable that her numbers add up the way she claims they do. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Like write them off completely? Screw the doctor that saved their lives...it's their god given right to skydive, and it's his god given responsiblity to use his hard earned education to treat this person without payment. As nice as it would be to be able to walk away from them completely, I can't buy into that mode of thought. -S Assume, hypothetically, a person making $20,000 per year owes $500,000 in medical bills. In your idealistic view of the world, what should that person do? Rob a bank? Kill off a loved one? Become an indentured servant? Why do you think America has bankruptcy laws? To protect chronic spenders? I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

She said she makes less than $12,000 a year, but she hasn't said whether she has other income or is racking up debt. I continue to pound her because I don't believe she's living on near poverty wages and paying nearly $2,000 per year for health insurance, without either outside income or debt. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Nope! You are irresponsible if you get hurt doing something that is risky and expect not to be held responsible for the bills. -S If someone has the means to pay their medical bills, even if it's a financial hardship, that person should absolutely do so. But if a person's medical bills are five times what he or she might ever be able to pay for a house, that person may have to explore other options. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

No, just the people who use their financials as the basis for their arguments. And I don't need the full financials; I just need full disclosure. If you're going to say, "My paycheck is for such-and-such amount, and I can afford health insurance; therefore, anyone can afford health insurance," you need to disclose whether or not you have any outside sources of income and exactly what living expenses you're paying out of that paycheck. Also, you should disclose if you're racking up debt, on the assumption that you'll pay it back when you get out of school and get a higher paying job. By making these disclosures, everyone knows you're actually comparing apples to apples. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

I agree. When I didn't have health insurance, it was always in the back of my mind when considering swooping and other higher risk activities. Since most of the high medical bills I've seen in this sport have been from low turns, I chose to refrain. But each person calculates the risks for himself or herself. It's not anyone else's job to tell somebody what he or she should or shouldn't be doing with or without insurance. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Having roommates is fine, if you need to do so to meet your living expenses, but it's not always the best option, and I think it would be silly, in most cases, to put yourself in a situation where you don't at least have your own bedroom, for the sole purpose of affording health insurance. Also, I'd still like for you to answer my question--Do you have any outside sources of income (family money, free place to live, student aid, etc.)? If not, bravo on your minimalist existence, but I still doubt your lifestyle would work for most people not in a collegiate setting. And I have even stronger doubts that it would work for someone with children. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

I have a harsh view on people who are half-way up the financial ladder but choose to look at the people on the bottom rung and say, "If I'm doing it, why can't you?" It particularly irks me when people with small paychecks but outside sources of income try to use their small paychecks to lend themselves false credibility when they criticize people who are truly in poor financial shape. I equate it to the white man who likes to run his mouth about how there is no racism or sexism anymore--How does he know? I see a lot of people throwing out numbers that don't really apply to them, but the truth is, they don't really know. They're preaching theories to people whose poor financial situations are realities. EDITED TO ADD: I also have a harsh view on all the fear mongering that goes on regarding health insurance. If you get sick or injured and don't have health insurance, your life is RUINED! You must get health insurance, no matter what the monetary cost or impact on your life! It's a load of horse shit. If you can afford health insurance without SERIOUSLY impacting your life, get it. If buying health insurance is going to require a serious, negative lifestyle change, take your chances without it. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

You never answered my question about whether or not you're paying all of your living expenses out of that $12,000, but I'm assuming from this comment that you're very likely subsidizing your income with money from your savings. That isn't an option for most people who make $12,000 a year. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

You say that as if there is something wrong with it. I see this as a perfect example of an exchange. "I could live in a small place by myself and not have health insurance, or I could live in a 3 bedroom house with 5 other people and have insurance". That's called making a responsible decision. -S I could live alone, have space and time to myself to unwind after work, always be able to take a shower when I get home, and always get a good night's sleep, or I could endure never having any alone time, never knowing if I'm going to be able to take a shower when I get home, and rolling the dice every night on whether or not I'll get a good night's sleep, all for the sake of having health insurance I may never use. Hmmm????? I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Sorry, Steve, but I don't buy that. There are a lot of employers that don't offer health insurance, most of whom employee lower income persons. To say to those workers who, in many cases, are lucky just to have jobs, that they have made the choice to not have health insurance is ridiculous. They've chosen the only option available to them, and health insurance wasn't included. I think it's equally ridiculous for a bunch of people who have either employer provided health insurance or sufficient income to easily buy their own health insurance to tell people who can't easily afford health insurance which recreational activities they're allowed to participate in. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Do you know her situation? Don't be so quick to judge if you don't know her personally. I put myself through college and grad school and paid all of my expenses making $10-$15K/year for 8 years. It sucked, it was very tight money wise, but it is do-able. I agree with many of the others, it is about where you choose to spend your money. There is lower cost health care available, plus state aid if your income is that low (depending on your state). It may not be great coverage, but in the event of major injury would be better than nothing at all. Cut out some expenses, pick up a little extra money at a side job, there's always a way. I'd already decided that line was a little harsh and removed it before you responded, but I still maintain that people living in the real world can't afford to spend $1,948 per year on health insurance when their annual income is only $12,000. That may work for someone receiving money from home or living in student housing or sharing a three bedroom house with five other people, but it doesn't work for someone paying the living expenses the rest of us face, and it certainly doesn't work for a single parent. I hear a lot of people suggesting other people take second jobs or indefinitely give up recreational activities to pay for health insurance, but I've yet to hear from anyone who's done this. Have any of you considered the possibility that some people value having free time to spend unwinding with family and friends, over having the financial security offered by health insurance? If you're making $12,000 a year, most hospitals will cut you a deal on your medical bills, just to make sure you don't stiff them, and as I said before, they'll work with you on a payment plan. And quite honestly, if the hospital tries to be a hard ass about it, taking bankruptcy isn't going to dramatically impact somebody who only makes $12,000 a year. So why should these people who are already busting their asses for measly pay bust their asses even harder just to pay into a high deductible insurance plan they may never use? EDITED TO ADD: And how exactly does she pay all her living expenses, plus $1,948/year on health insurance, AND afford to jump out of airplanes? That kind of math doesn't work in the real world. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

So, I take it you're paying ALL your living expenses out of your own pocket (housing, food, transportation, utilities, etc., etc., etc.), not receiving any cash or subsidies from family, financial aid, etc., and then, despite having an income hovering just above the U.S. poverty level, paying 17% of your annual income for something you may never use? Oh yeah--How many dependents do you have? I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.