CrazyL

hahaha.

OOOOoooo the hourly rate when its all said and done? Big $$$ right? My day job pays better. Occasionally rigging pays decent. It's not really about the money. Atleast that's what I remind myself.

I agree until the point I was actually on my back and the reserve bridle was deploying over my left shoulder and i had a clear view of my reserve pilotchute for moment then the reserve freebag banged into the back of my head then the canopy slammed open. I think the bag hitting my head caused the bag to spin during deployment causing line twists. The reaper still had a grip on me as I kicked out of the twists, then came time to choose landing area. so instead of landing on a dirt road I chose a muddy field in case of any clear air disturbance or micro burst or any other wierd stuff. I figured the muddy field was soft and i'd survive. Stood up the mini cricket 130 and only got my shoes muddy.

If I tried I bet I could pack a reserve canopy into and close the reserve container in under 20 minutes. Havent ever really tried. Thats not what matters. It still takes me on average 1.5 hrs per inspection and packing of the reserve, add another 45 minutes to 1hr for main inspection and main packing. Add atleast a half hour of visiting with the rig owner/user. These times are if all goes well.

BS for sure.

I survived a bag lock malfunction wanna know the story? Happened on April 1st a several years ago. Wearing video stills ringsite racer and was freeflying no aad. Threw out BOC mounted pilotchute, deployment immediately did'nt feel right, was curious of the mal. Grabbed risers spreading them apart looking up at what appeared to be a baglock. Definately felt as if the fall rate increased. Was stood up a bit but was still on my belly a bit too. Shook the risers and the bag spun like a top. --Easy decision right? Just cutaway and pull the reserve right? Ya, should be.-- As i let go of the risers and go to look for my cutaway handle the lines of my main were like spaghetti strings being blown wildly in my face. hmm. my next question was 'did lines entangle on my camera helmet' in order to survive i'd better clear that kinda problem. So I grab the risers at the 3 rings and slide my hands up the risers spliting them apart which created this sort of hole for my head and helmet to pass by the lines to look at my handles. Cutaway handle was down by my waist reserve handle was near my shoulder. So I did it, cutaway and pulled the reserve. It worked. I did lose altitude awareness once I had fear of line/helmet entanglement. When i cutaway i felt like I was 'going in ' so instead of spending time checking my alti or being totally stable, I pulled the reserve ripcord as soon as I felt the main totally release. Just after the cutaway and reserve ripcord pull I fell onto my back as the reserve was deploying. The reserve opened fast and square with some line twists. My altitude then was just over 1,000ft. I had pulled at 3,500ft. I reacted quickly .I was very glad to have made it. Had I pulled at 2,500ft I could've ended up open just above the dirt or ended up 6ft under. Can you figure out what went wrong? Like more details? Main d bag had black rubber bands for every stow, some people jumped to conclusion blaming the black bands, that was'nt the problem . Pilotchute was set, not the problem. line stows, got totally screwed up during deployment. One side of the tail of the main canopy had gotten pulled through the slider grommet and out of the dbag a little bit. So, why was there slack line, why was the handles in different places. Did I speed up? What really caused the mal? Did I deal with the problem properly? What about freeflying with that rig? Do you remember the malfunction pics during student training? This mal was'nt in there. Here you go.

ditto. Forgery of ones signature is still illegal and punishment can be severe. Pencil packing is a disservice to the jumper and the rigger and to the jumpers friends and family.

Ya might get lucky. Master Rigger in Long Beach. I'm even going to be in Orange County today! Like to surf? Huntington Pier?

I do rigging most days, parachuting or otherwise and am current. It seems to me that with an 180 day pack cycle riggers will be doing half as many inspections and packing of reserves which could add up to nearly half as many days of rigging to be current as a rigger. Many riggers I know have another job. Go to even the busiest dz's and you might find 'a' full time rigger working at a loft. Even with 120 day cycle parachute rigging as a full time job still does'nt produce very many full time jobs for a parachute rigger. How do riggers stay within the 90 days a year currency requirement now? Later?

One of the most important things in life is 'living'. Material things just add to the glory of 'living'. I feel for the many people who've been displaced, adults, kids, animals. Similar to the fallout after hurricane Katrina and other disasters it will take alot of time for these people to recoop and rebuild. I work in L.A. and even though fire is a few miles away business is as usual with some exceptions. As a whole the workers are getting less done due to the smoke and ash, the air quality is so poor it slows people down. Best of luck to those affected by the fires.

All is well in Long Beach other than a dusting of ash and light-medium smoke inhalation. pm me or call me if you and your man need a place to evacuate to.

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>even when up jumpers are yelling at them to 'go' even if they have'nt reached 10 seconds.

Usually I have a fullface helmet on that makes it difficult for me to hear, and it's even harder to hear near the door. If someone is yelling and gesturing when I'm getting ready to exit, either:

a) he's telling me to go or

b) he's telling me something important, like "YOU HAVE TRAFFIC UNDER YOU!"

When I am in a position to do so, I will sometimes take my helmet off to better hear him. If it's a warning it might be a good thing I did. If it's just the usual "GO!" then I'll put my helmet back on and go. Doing so gives me a few extra seconds anyway - and reinforces the idea that _not_ yelling will get people out of the plane faster.

i like your way Bill. I might use it someday. Ya, my newest helmet is pretty sealed and I cannot hear as much outside noise.

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Okay, I keep forgetting that Math is a foreign language for a lot of people.

Well Math is actually something that has always come natural for me. In the 9th grade I completed Algebra, geometry, Trig, Calculus, and Math analysis. So it isn’t that Math is foreign, its that I want to enjoy my skydive with out having to think out the math of this equation just to get separation. I’d like to be able to think about the Dive Plan I have with the fine folks I am jumping with.

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What we have here is, however, "kindergarten algebra," the mathematical equivalent of "See Spot run! Run, Spot, Run!" Anyone who can balance their checkbook should be able to guesstimate the appropriate values in their head.

Again I would really like to focus on my jump not sit there and do math for everyone on the plane.

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Come on, this is not Rocket Surgery. How accurate do you think the count typically is between two groups? Do you think " gimme ten seconds" is likely to result in anything like 10.00 seconds?

As far as this goes...If you are trained to count in a Cadence, as we were in Army jump School, it is pretty easy to get an accurate count and be fairly consistent.
Example: I asked my wife to run a stop watch and not tell me the times until we were done with 5 attempts. Using the cadence I was trained with in the Army, I counted from 1 thousand, 2 thousand…up to 10 thousand. These are the times she reported.
10.30 seconds
9.89 seconds
10.21 seconds
10.20 seconds
9.80 seconds
That’s an Average of 10.08 seconds with only a variance of .50 seconds over 5 attempts. That seems pretty damn consistent to me.

I just don’t understand why something so simple has to become some long drawn out Math Class.

Most people understand the risk involved in skydiving. If they don’t then they shouldn’t be skydiving. I really dont see a need to make this all so damn technical and scientific for the average jumper.

Just seems to me that if you set a basic base time between groups then adjust from there for changing conditions and groups the world will be right.

Teach that in FJC's. Teach a Cadence before they jump. Hand them a stop watch and have them practice during class breaks.

Seems pretty simple to me..

Your well trained at that 10 second count. If you are exiting after me, I would'nt worry too much about you and the separation. Only if all jumpers could be as smart as you, even when up jumpers are yelling at them to 'go' even if they have'nt reached 10 seconds.

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Add another human eliment which is a 'jump master/separation master/ spotter/ load organizer'. A person who is on each load and organizes the separation between groups. Sure that person would take up a seat on the load and would mtl require a ticket and be jumping last out. there are just not enough incidents due to separation that would account the need for such a slot.

Newbie Question: Isn't there supposed to always be one person on each load that serves as the jumpmaster (a USPA recommendation/rule)?

- David

Not certain about that one. No jumpers on the aircraft I was on today had 'a' jumpmaster, we each jumpmastered ourselves. During AFF training program students typically will have an instructor with them. As an licensed jumper 'you' are your own jumpmaster on most jumps. Your required to do the things that you learned in AFF or student training ' the basics'. Such as climbing into the aircraft without banging your head, handle checks, preplanned dive, predetermined pull altitude, exit order in reference to other groups, knowing landing direction, spotting (watching/looking for aircraft that you might collide with) , other jumpers, and where the dz is in relation to the 'spot', time between groups(separation), handle checks oh i said that one already, again handle checks, pulling on time, flying with the traffic pattern, landing safely, and most of all not killing me. Larry

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This 45 degree myth sucks yet seems to work. Is there any other 'easy to understand' concept that 'works really well'. I understand the separation deal. You should not be worried if i'm exiting after you. It's the newbies who count fast who I can tell that the f!@#$cker is going to exit too close to me and my group that I would like to feel comfy with.

Counting to "10-one thousand" or more is very easy. Few people can judge 45 degrees with any accuracy anyway. But I can sure as hell count to 10.

Yep, I counted to 10-one thousand today on 6 jumps. Winds were high , at 10-one thousand I climbed out , my skysurfer got into position and we exited at just over 15- one thousand. I estimate we had between 1,000 and 1,500 ft of separation between the next group. Counting worked well. I also watched the next group, no groups that exited ahead of us ever made it to 45 degrees. Maybe 30 degrees. I was still looking at the group as if they'd make it to 45 degrees. Jumping with 80kt uppers flying into the wind means more time between groups. We still could've given the group ahead of us more time, but were at a safe distance horizontally and vertically. Vertically we were open at 5grand and others around 3 grand. Larry

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I am by no means a Moron...But you guys just gave me a Freakin headache.... I think ill just go back to guessing at what time seems sort of safe and go with that.....

You know and with what jump pilots seem to make for wages and it seems that alot of them are just there to get hours so they can go on to a better flying Career how many of them do you think are reallubg going to do all that math plus do the other stuff they are doing and be accurate... Maybe we should require all jump Planes to have a second seater who is a Math guy and thats his entire job, to do the MATH. I bet that would do wonders for jump ticket prices...

So can we get a "Jump run Seperation for Dummies" version of all this mumbojumbo? Thanx.
I mean after all, WE JUMP OUT OF AIRPLANES, there is Risk. What I want is something that works for , NOT REMOVING ALL the Risk but something that gives me some slightly better odds for separation with out a headache.

Add another human eliment which is a 'jump master/separation master/ spotter/ load organizer'. A person who is on each load and organizes the separation between groups. Sure that person would take up a seat on the load and would mtl require a ticket and be jumping last out. there are just not enough incidents due to separation that would account the need for such a slot.

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He just barely missed the culvert, was very close though.

oooh spooky. I tell ya, from my point of view assessing that particular pond, the culvert is Black Death. So he struck the ground just before it. He's so lucky.

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So did you call or visit Perris, did you read any of the latest posts? Billvon answered that one, sad enough .......I'll tell you how the 45 degree myth works. It makes the next group hang out in the door for a period of time and watch the group in front of them fly away. that's exactly what I noted on the post where I summarized your position but at that time you took exception to it because I mocked it Have you ever did a BASE jump? just the one, I counted slow, but only took 5 counts instead of the 7-8 the others were, the exit was fine and head up, though another guy did go head down - I still watch the vid once in a while, it's was very fun ....... So what is a sure fire way to get separation between you and the newbie? For me it's let them go in front of me so I have control of the separation when it's possible for me to let them by. you got that right, those that can't/won't learn can just go first, as long as exit order isn't compromised - you noted the problem that can cause

blues - we're on the same side, but I think you can do it without using a negligent and flawed concept.

(AFFI - you must be the most coolest and extreme skydiver on the planet. "skin on the ringsight" I bet women want you and men want to be like you.)

I'm with you man. AFFI must be.... Ya, i'd like the concept of separation to be taught well and true, similar to EP's. I did'nt check but are you an instructor, i'm not. Reason i ask is that is there anything on the A license proficiency requirements card that has to do with exit separation and exit order? I'm thinking about sitting through a first jump course and check out how jumpers are being trained these days.

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But in a Cessna 182, leaning forward on take off, what does that do? Does it help with lift in any way.

No, leaning forward hurts lift. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea to lean forward on takeoff, but it will increase takeoff distance and reduce the climb rate. Probably such a small amount you'd never notice, but it will happen.

Moving the center of gravity forward means the horizontal stabilizer has to produce more "negative lift" to keep the nose up. The total amount of lift the wings need to make in order to get off the ground and climb has to go up to compensate for the higher stabilizer load. It's perfectly equivalent to adding weight to the plane.

The other part of it is that in order to get the nose up, more elevator is needed. That makes more parasite drag. The higher lift from the wings and stabilizer produces more induced drag as well.

But none of that matters if the plane is outside its center of gravity limits. If the center of gravity is too far aft, the plane will be unstable in pitch and stall recovery might become impossible. But if the difference between being inside the limits and outside the limits is the way the jumpers lean, there's something wrong.

Myth Busted.

Dave

Thanks for busting the myth Dave. So does leaning forward help stall recovery if the a/c were to possibly stall on take off?

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>Is there any other 'easy to understand' concept that 'works really well'.

"If you get farther forward in the plane it climbs faster." It usually doesn't; indeed, most aircraft climb a bit slower. But it helps with weight and balance on jump run, and in an aircraft emergency it's generally better to have weight a bit too far forward than a bit too far back.

I believe it. But in a Cessna 182, leaning forward on take off, what does that do? Does it help with lift in any way. We did that 'lean forward on take off' a whole lot jumping 182's.

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Does Perris really advocate that method?

Knowing so many people there, I really doubt it.
Summary - The 45 has no basis in how people fall and separate in freefall.

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So did you call or visit Perris, did you read any of the latest posts? Do you still doubt. So you don't believe me. who cares. I don't believe you know 'so many people at Perris, if you do you've never dicussed this thing about separation. I'll tell you how the 45 degree myth works. It makes the next group hang out in the door for a period of time and watch the group in front of them fly away. Does it give 'proper' separation. Maybe, maybe not. Have you ever did a BASE jump? 3 second delay? On your first 'freefall ' BASE jump, how fast did you count? I'd bet if you've ever had the balls to do a first 'freefall' BASE jump you counted really fast, and probably went head down. My point is about the 'counting' it works too. Newbie being all excited will count to 10 faster than what 10 seconds is, i'll bet you. So what is a sure fire way to get separation between you and the newbie? For me it's let them go in front of me so I have control of the separation when it's possible for me to let them by.

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all I can do is get lucky every now and then and educate someone willing to consider my point of view.

You know what, that's what i'm looking forward to reading here. Even from remwa. Not looking for a rant. Looking for another jumpers point of view and opinion. Looking for those real life stories of how close calls due to lack of separation. In the past i've learnes quite a bit sitting around the bonfire sip'n beers and listening to the older jumpers tell black death stories. Some of the stories give the 'reason to'... 'cause someone nearly/or did get injured or killed doing it. And I definately agree about the visit after such an occurence. No need to be ugly and rude. That just pisses most people off and all they hear then is ugly and rude. Being calm and educational seems to work well.

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Does Perris really advocate that method?

Knowing so many people there, I really doubt it.

The fact you learned little from the post is due to you. Summary - The 45 has no basis in how people fall and separate in freefall. That's the lesson. That one can still use it to force someone to stop and look and pause for a moment is interesting, and might be better than nothing. But it is no more than just assigning a single delay time that doesn't consider real wind conditions - and, leaving that time arbitrarily up to each jumper.

Look at the winds, check the plane's ground speed on jump run, pick an exit separation that matches. It's not hard to do, it's not hard to learn. SDAZ has the generic rules posted inside the airplane even.

For odd jump run directions and wind conditions, then maybe have someone smarter about it figure it out and get it announced.

The conviction comes from seeing people that use the 45 degree rule falling past me and my friends in freefall because they didn't wait enough on a high uppers wind day. The conviction comes from seeing that happen around my wife and friends. The 45 degree thing would have them exit with the same delay on a low wind day as on a VERY high wind day (relative to the ground winds).

You bet I'm motivated to teach people how to do it right. You bet I'm motivated to eliminate stupid and dangerous old timer 'rules' that don't work.

Get us started on exit order. The 45 degree attitude also leads you wrong on that too.

You know, I think you and I both are after the same thing. Probably using similar techniques. Maybe you feel strongly that I solely believe and use the 45 degree myth, your wrong if thats the case. Sounds like you and/or your wife and friends have nearly been killed by freefallers that should have given you more separation. You know what, me too. Has happened a few times. The worst case was when an 8 way rw went after me and a buddy freeflying. Jumprun into the wind on a high wind day. I opened and travelled crosswind then turned upwind. There was an eerie sound then 8 freefallers one on each and every side of my canopy. They must have broken off and began tracking directly above me, thank god they missed me. Yes I was scared shitless and thought I was about to get hit and die right there. Something changed that day, it was exit order. This 45 degree myth sucks yet seems to work. Is there any other 'easy to understand' concept that 'works really well'. I understand the separation deal. You should not be worried if i'm exiting after you. It's the newbies who count fast who I can tell that the f!@#$cker is going to exit too close to me and my group that I would like to feel comfy with. Call Perris and find out what method they advocate. And know the difference between 'post' and 'thread'. No need to summarize the 'thread' for me but it is nice of you, thanks.

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the 45 degree deal should be discarded entirely.

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I know what i do to try to keep others from killing me while skydiving.

Takes me back to an earlier inquire concerning the number of fatalities directly attributable to poor exit separation – how many have there been?

Freefall collisions? Canopy collisions? Malfunctions created by close proximity?

Would it be impossible to ascertain such a fact?


Perhaps the salient point that CrazyL is potentially suggesting is that the utilization of the “45 degree” method of teaching and obtaining separation is here to stay - like it, believe in it or otherwise. It is in use across the board by very experienced individuals in the skydiving arena. Is that such a bad thing?
Whether it is correct or not, is there evidence that utilization of such a philosophy has created enough if any fatalities to suggest that we should be so concerned about it? Maybe that is the question we should be asking? Maybe not?

Maybe the 45 degree myth is here to stay, i'm a bit afraid of that. Have there been any fatalitues due to jumpers who used the 45 degree myth and/ or the 10 seconds for separation?

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....... usually works, so does the 45 degree flawed concept. ......

I think you just like to argue for the fun of it.

Let me see if I get your position -

"The 45 degree rule is SO IDIOTIC, that if you teach it to everyone, they will go to the door, become completely confused with the absolute impossibility of such a stupid concept that they might, possibly, if we are lucky, freeze at the door with a stupid vacant expression, for about the correct number of seconds for whatever the winds would indicate, anywhere from no time to as much as a minute between groups - depending, using a real method."

Seems good to me. That vacant look is likely very common on some planes.

Such conviction in your post. You totally missed my position entirely, try again. Do think I believe in the 45 degree deal, argue for fun. You obviously miss my point here. Sure perris is using the 45 degree deal, how 'bout other dz's, what did old timers use to do, what are newbies trained to do, what are others opinions? I know what i do to try to keep others from killing me while skydiving. What do others do, is that a good question or arguement? I use this dz.com as a place to learn and share opinions. Did'nt learn much from your last post.