VIGIL

[rjf98 0]

DUDE! I must really suck for them to not contact me

I'm glad to hear some news on this company... I truly hope everything works out for them. If you get a hold of this "Jo" person again let her know that even in the throws of controversy they could keep interest by simply responding to e-mails.

I just read some posts to a thread from Linda and this is almost like reverse sponsorship problem. I'm not asking for freebies, but they want me to try their product and promote it but won't even write to me

Whatever, I should have a used cypress in a couple of days anyway.

[GeeeeeeFly 0]

Here is my latest from Jo regarding the problems with Airtec. Iwas concerned since reading the lastest postings from this column...





Hi Guy,

Airtec is trying to bully us and our US cutter manufacturer. They have no chance, since we have US and EU patents and the use of a cutter to open parachutes is public domain since the 70's. But we wil make a statement of this and before that statement we will not ship to the US.

If you have any questions, just ask...

Blue skies,
Jo.

"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"

[cpoxon 0]

Cutter patent?

Vigil patent?

[rjf98 0]

Does anyone else feel a little confused after reading those?

Interesting that the Vigil doesn't rely on changes in ambient pressure alone, but rather on a theoretical calculation for how long a freefall should last.
According to their patent the device should "become more accurate with each use". This to me sounds like a bunch of scientists who are working in a vaccume. Don't start yelling yet, I have already been slammed on a post so just slow down and hear me out.
By claiming that the device adjust it's theoretical time for a jump based on previous jumps and then saying it becomes more accurate, aren't they needing to assume that each jump is essentially the same profile?
What if I'm doing freeflying, then belly RW, then taking up a student on an AFF and REALLY going slow, or a hybrid and changing our fall rate throughout the dive? If I'm putting this into a student rig that will be changed between students with different weights and body types what happens to increased accuracy with each jump?
If your dropping a dummy with a parachute attached time after time then sure, I see the device getting more accurate.
Hey, I started this thread, and I still would rather have the new device, but are there any engineers or rocket scientist that can speak up regarding why Vigil thinks their system based on theoretical dive flows bounced off of real time data actually is better?

In relation to the cutter I have to wonder though what kind they are using. Their patent says nothing about a cutter, but rather the controller for a cutter. I definetly don't have enough knowledge about the industry to know about that.

[jurgencamps 0]

Chrisky: it was not a beta version, it was an experimental version. The French skydiver was / is the testjumper.

Jurgen

[angelos 0]

Hello. this is Angelo and i am from greece. USPA D Lic. and SL/I . So i am for the moment in the States for military training and i also tried to contact the guys of that company. They send to me an answer in the very next couple of days. I believe that is a good product and i am sure that it's good to have a competitor in this area. I do not see any reason not to try it and trust it. It's a good deal. They told to me that they do not provide any other units in low price ..U know to try it... they had a dead line till end of June i think.. Any way. Just check if you are using the right e-mail address (i am sure you are) and give one more shot.
Blue skies
Angelos

• Quote

[usmcdannyboy 0]

--------------BOTTOM LINE---------------

its an insurance policy.....do you drive like an asshole just because you have insurance???? then why fly any different because you have an AAD...cypress saves have increased over the years because people are forgetting their first responsibility...DON'T FORGET TO PULL.. I for one am ordering one. but will i trust it?? I'll trust it like I would a cypress, which will be never..I trust myself..and if i cant then i am a danger to all i jump with....oh and this isnt directed to any specific person ...just fellow skydivers in general...we are all brothers and got to remind each other what we were taught..

I am the light my son...What you seek is fire

[diablopilot 2]

So I just got to play with one. (Demo unit we got in the shop)

Cute packaging, much nicer than the AirTec/Cypres fanny pack. Nice aluminum carry case w/ foam inserts, and shoulder strap. Be good to carry stuff in.

Oh yeah, the unit. I like the cables that run to the cutter, and control unit. That's about it.

The unit is heavy. The control unit is a bit weird, and there can be trouble seeing the flashing red LED. Plus there is another LED or two to make things confusing. The start up sequence takes some getting used to, on my first try I EASILY changed the altitude the unit was to fire at, without knowing I did it. So did the person who played with it before me.

Changing between "PRO", "STUDENT" and "TANDEM" is all too easy as well. No manual to speak of, just a "road map" like the one that comes with a ProTrack.

It is supposed to be able to keep data about your skydive and display it afterward. Also will let you know how many "SAVES" it has. IMO useless features.

Over all I am not impressed, and part of the feelingis due to the fact the unit has no history to read performance from.

Here's my first big beef with the unit:

I don't think th..... (hang on, let me get my fire proof clothing)

I don't think that most skydivers need or should have that much access to a device that is going to work independent of their actions.

Basically I'm saying there are a bunch of dumb, non-instruction reading skydivers in the world (no one on DZ.com of course), and that this device could be a danger in their hands.

How many people do you all know who just press the button when the red light tells them on their cypress unit and then forget about it? They have never even opened their manual.

Now imagine the same person is given a device which is supposed to do the same job, and looks almost the same, except they have to make choices and decisions in order to have it do the same job. They will have to do this EVERY time they turn it on.

How many time have you just made it to the DZ friday afternoon, with just enough time to manifest do a brief gear check, press the button 4 times, and hop on the aircraft?

What happens when someone is in a rush, and accidentily sets for "TANDEM" mode? (Higher deployment) Or someone sets for "STUDENT" mode (lower speed deployment) and then does a phat 720 from 800 feet on their ultra small canopy.

Just some thoughts. Flame away.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Chrisky 0]

No offence, but do a search.
That subject has been here a few times.

Here's the talk:

It's grounded in France for premature firing during a straight foward flight @ 500m.
Airtec sued the manufacturer of the cutters for selling thm to the competitors, and no shipping until that's sorted out.
Lots of people fighting if better to stick to the Cypres, Cypres2 or go to Vigil, as it promises to be better, but hasn't yet proven.
End of roundup.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[pbla4024 0]

You are wrong, Vigil is not grounded in France.

Fido

[Chrisky 0]

Quote

Here's the talk:

There was an article on that in the french "Paramag".
*tries to dig up the lost link**finds*

----Snip!
9/7/2003 Para-mag.com

Vigil interdit
L'équipe de France de vol relatif à 4 est sponsorisée depuis peu par la société belge AAD, constructeur du Vigil, le nouveau déclencheur automatique présenté dans notre précédente édition. Fin juin dernier, et au cours d'un saut d'entraînement du 4 France, Erwan Pouliquen a subi un déclenchement intempestif de l'appareil à 500 mètres d'altitude alors qu'il était pendu sous sa voile principale à une altitude normale. Sa voile de secours s'est déployée complètement et Erwan a choisi de libérer la principale pour se poser sainement. Immédiatement après l'incident, le directeur technique national Jean-Marc Seurin a pris la sage décision de procéder à l'interdiction de l'utilisation du Vigil en France jusqu'à ce que la société fasse preuve de la fiabilité de son produit.
----Snip!

It's not on the website anymore, though. It was sent to me by a fellow jumper regularly training in France and thus being up-to-date there.

So, i assume it's grounded there, unless i get other info than just you saying "No it's not.." (No offence)

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Chrisky 0]

Good points+excellent presentation, JP!

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[jurgencamps 0]

Not grounded anymore. Nevertheless it was just some panic reaction to ground it without even knowing why the unit fired. It was an experimental version, not even a betaversion (experimental software) and the cutter just did what the experimental software said. And it was a sponsored testjumper.

So every time a testjumper from let's say PD or Icarus has a cutaway, USPA will ground all their canopies and here at DZ.ccom we will say that their canopies suck and should be banned? I don't think so.

<> So if it's still grounded, why is it not anymore on the french website?

Sorry but know the facts before you shoot.
Do you prefer the cypres, vigil, mars, astra ... , it's a personal choice, but please keep to the facts.

Jurgen

[meatbomb 0]

He did more than just say that it's lifted...
Look at the attachment to his post entitled:
"Levee d'interdiction"
or "Lifting of ban"

---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[Chrisky 0]

PLEASE reread that post thoroughly:

Special note on the second line, third word ("'s" not counted) below.

Quote

That subject has been here a few times.

Here's the talk:

It's grounded in France for premature firing during a straight foward flight @ 500m.
Airtec sued the manufacturer of the cutters for selling thm to the competitors, and no shipping until that's sorted out.
Lots of people fighting if better to stick to the Cypres, Cypres2 or go to Vigil, as it promises to be better, but hasn't yet proven.
End of roundup

Quote

Not grounded anymore. Nevertheless it was just some panic reaction to ground it without even knowing why the unit fired. It was an experimental version, not even a betaversion (experimental software) and the cutter just did what the experimental software said. And it was a sponsored testjumper.

I was very interested in the device myself. From the info i got from their website, these WERE beta versions of the first production lot.

Quote

What is a "Beta" unit exactly?
Is it similar to the model that will be available later? It is identical. It's our way to distribute the first production units to high-profile, experienced people.

Find this in the FAQ section of their website. I haven't looked at their site anymore since the malfunction (of the pre-beta software or whatever) happened, because getting a new AAD was a question of time back then.
Apart from that, grounding something which is malfunctioning without knowing the reason for the mal can hardly be called a panic reaction seriously.

Quote

So every time a testjumper from let's say PD or Icarus has a cutaway, USPA will ground all their canopies and here at DZ.ccom we will say that their canopies suck and should be banned? I don't think so.

Did i post it sucked? Please stick to the subject or qoute from the post in question.
The comparison with canopy prototypes fails IMHO.

Quote

So if it's still grounded, why is it not anymore on the french website?

Why should i know? Websites sometimes change, especially if they post latest news. But i suppose, if it's true that the VIGIL isn't grounded anymore, they might have taken it of not to mislead the public?

Quote

Sorry but know the facts before you shoot.

Now, did i? I didn't post i was stating facts, apart from that it WAS grounded for some time.

But if you'd ask me, why did they equip the french team with "experimental" units, while the "normal" was still in beta testing?
SEEMS to me that it was a misfiring beta briefly relabeled to beta not to scare customers, but that's MY _opinion_.

And YES Cypres also had misfires after its' introduction. Thus, i don't take a side.

Relax, Dude!
I've got my AAD... nuf said.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Chrisky 0]

Sorry, my fault,
1. didn't see the attachment, i'm dumb. I also jump from planes. A "Look at attachment" might have helped?
2. Don't have WORD here. How about a webfriendly PDF? Preferably in english?

EDITED TO ADD: This lifting might interest more people, a thread titled "Vigil ban in France lifted" might be more helpful for interested ppl than this half-hidden answer-thread?

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[meatbomb 0]

(Very) Rough online translation:

FLASH SAFETY(SECURITY)
FOR POSTING

Reference: YD / 03.2077

Date: September 12th, 2003



Object: LIFTING OF BAN ON USE OF the VIGIL


Concerned materials: VIGIL
Advanced Aerospace Designs company
A.A.D. LIMITED COMPANY


Text: the builder informs us to have encircled the origin of the malfunction on one of his devices in test and remedied this one.

The ban on use is raised.

Devices will however be marketed only having satisfied a new test program defined and operated by the manufacturer.


Date application: from reception.


Additional information: Yves DEVAURAZ in 05.53.57.26.22 or 06.61.67.57.01


Distribution(Broadcasting): approved schools (by mail and fax)

---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[pbla4024 0]

Next time I will announce attachemnt. This is official french document and I used dictionary to understand it (I live in France only for three month). To create "Vigil ban in France lifted" thread is Vigil company work, not mine.

Fido

[Chrisky 0]

I don't think they would be allowed, as it would maybe be some form of advertizing?

On the other hand, why wouldn't you post info of interest for other skydivers, like i.e. the one posting the Capewell Components Pin testing Bulletin a while ago?

Have fun!

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...