RichM 0 #1 May 9, 2003 Last weekend we had an incident at our dz where an experienced young girl had a toggle become detached during the flare for landing. She has several hundred jumps (actual figure unknown) and is flying a Jedai 135 loaded at about 1.3. It happened during a straight in approach and she cartwheeled across the ground and is thankfully fine. Inspection of her kit revealed that she had recently had the line set changed. Looking at the still attached brake toggle showed that the rigger who did this attached the brake toggles by threading the brake line up through the grommet, all the way around the toggle, back down through the grommet and tying a thumb knot in the line to prevent it slipping out through the grommet. However the line was not the thick stuff (dacron?) and the thumb knot was not fat enough to prevent it being pulled through the grommet. There being no other prevention in place this is what happened as she flare to land. Had she been a swooper this might have been posted in incidents instead We reattached both toggles by folding the brake line back on itself and tying a thumb know forming a fixed loop, leaving 3 inches or so of loose end. Threading the loop up through the toggle grommet and then the toggle handle through the loop so there is no way it can just pull out - it would have to break. Finally finger trapping the loose end. I haven't been able to find out who the rigger was or where it was done. I do know it wasn't done at our dz (Headcorn, UK). Please everyone check your gear and be sure - brake failures on landing can and do kill us.Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #2 May 9, 2003 Why are you so sure the work was performed by a rigger? The way you describe the attachment, it seems more likely to have been done by someone NOT familiar with the proper way to attach the toggle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 May 9, 2003 That technique is used for Dacron lines on reserves because a knot wold be so bulky. So it could have been a rigger. Applying that technique to thinner lines doesn't work, obviously. I prefer to finger-trap the loop for attaching toogles and sew. No knot to hang up and is very clean. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #4 May 9, 2003 I got lucky and had the same thing happen in 98 on a hook turn. Crappy maintenance was the cause. I was not in the corner though, and so got away with it, but still got dirty and rubbed me ego some. Look after your gear. I try do a better job now. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #5 May 9, 2003 QuoteThat technique is used for Dacron lines on reserves because a knot wold be so bulky. So it could have been a rigger. Applying that technique to thinner lines doesn't work, obviously. I prefer to finger-trap the loop for attaching toogles and sew. No knot to hang up and is very clean.Quote I'm fully aware of this. However he states the line is not Dacron and the canopy was a main not a reserve. He also indicates they don't know who the rigger is. Why not just ask the jumper? I think it's logical to question whether a rigger performed this work and to ask why they think it was done by a rigger. Perhaps the jumper or a friend did it and they don't want to reveal that individuals identity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RichM 0 #6 May 9, 2003 Quote Quote That technique is used for Dacron lines on reserves because a knot wold be so bulky. So it could have been a rigger. Applying that technique to thinner lines doesn't work, obviously. I prefer to finger-trap the loop for attaching toogles and sew. No knot to hang up and is very clean. Quote I'm fully aware of this. However he states the line is not Dacron and the canopy was a main not a reserve. He also indicates they don't know who the rigger is. Why not just ask the jumper? I think it's logical to question whether a rigger performed this work and to ask why they think it was done by a rigger. Perhaps the jumper or a friend did it and they don't want to reveal that individuals identity. I understand your concern, but (a) yeah, I didn't ask because I didn't think of it, and (b) it had just had a new line set fitted including brake lines and I know a rigger did it for her. You sound like someone on the defensive - you haven't done a 135 Jedei lineset in the last month have you? Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #7 May 10, 2003 Nope, no Jedei's lately. Thanks for the additional information, that clears things up. Your original post seemed sort of speculative thats why I asked for clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feelopen 0 #8 May 10, 2003 My BASE toggle lines are hitched to the toggle using a reinforced finger trap that then easily larks heads with itself around the grommet and toggle - it seems this is a more sound way of doing it because there's less bulk, less to inspect, and unless the fingertrap came unstitched - there's no way for it to come off the toggle. Do the knots serve as some sort of blown toggle prevention? It seems like the opposite to me: that the added bulk would make it even more likely to occur if you're using slinks or your slider goes over the bumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RichM 0 #9 May 10, 2003 Quote Your original post seemed sort of speculative thats why I asked for clarification. It did, good call Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RichM 0 #10 May 10, 2003 QuoteMy BASE toggle lines are hitched to the toggle using a reinforced finger trap that then easily larks heads with itself around the grommet and toggle - it seems this is a more sound way of doing it because there's less bulk, less to inspect, and unless the fingertrap came unstitched - there's no way for it to come off the toggle. Do the knots serve as some sort of blown toggle prevention? It seems like the opposite to me: that the added bulk would make it even more likely to occur if you're using slinks or your slider goes over the bumpers. I can't figure how this looks, can you draw me a picture please? We knotted rather than stitched because she wanted to get back up in the air, good girl :)Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CRWBUDDHA 0 #11 May 10, 2003 By the rules we all pretend to operate under, I would suggest you might consider looking up this one: Q. Who is responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of a skydiving parachute system? Note: the question does not state or ask who is licensed to make repairs, alterations or assembly and packing. Yep, sometimes lessons learned are hard ones. Sorry about your friend and I hope this episode will make her stronger and perhaps a mentor to others, helping to prevent any more of these complacent injuries. Buddha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RichM 0 #12 May 26, 2003 I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for substandard workmanship on a piece of life saving equipment. Plenty of non riggers wouldn't have even seen this. I had to look at the other brake toggle for a few minutes before I figured out what the problem was.Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
RichM 0 #6 May 9, 2003 Quote Quote That technique is used for Dacron lines on reserves because a knot wold be so bulky. So it could have been a rigger. Applying that technique to thinner lines doesn't work, obviously. I prefer to finger-trap the loop for attaching toogles and sew. No knot to hang up and is very clean. Quote I'm fully aware of this. However he states the line is not Dacron and the canopy was a main not a reserve. He also indicates they don't know who the rigger is. Why not just ask the jumper? I think it's logical to question whether a rigger performed this work and to ask why they think it was done by a rigger. Perhaps the jumper or a friend did it and they don't want to reveal that individuals identity. I understand your concern, but (a) yeah, I didn't ask because I didn't think of it, and (b) it had just had a new line set fitted including brake lines and I know a rigger did it for her. You sound like someone on the defensive - you haven't done a 135 Jedei lineset in the last month have you? Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #7 May 10, 2003 Nope, no Jedei's lately. Thanks for the additional information, that clears things up. Your original post seemed sort of speculative thats why I asked for clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feelopen 0 #8 May 10, 2003 My BASE toggle lines are hitched to the toggle using a reinforced finger trap that then easily larks heads with itself around the grommet and toggle - it seems this is a more sound way of doing it because there's less bulk, less to inspect, and unless the fingertrap came unstitched - there's no way for it to come off the toggle. Do the knots serve as some sort of blown toggle prevention? It seems like the opposite to me: that the added bulk would make it even more likely to occur if you're using slinks or your slider goes over the bumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichM 0 #9 May 10, 2003 Quote Your original post seemed sort of speculative thats why I asked for clarification. It did, good call Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichM 0 #10 May 10, 2003 QuoteMy BASE toggle lines are hitched to the toggle using a reinforced finger trap that then easily larks heads with itself around the grommet and toggle - it seems this is a more sound way of doing it because there's less bulk, less to inspect, and unless the fingertrap came unstitched - there's no way for it to come off the toggle. Do the knots serve as some sort of blown toggle prevention? It seems like the opposite to me: that the added bulk would make it even more likely to occur if you're using slinks or your slider goes over the bumpers. I can't figure how this looks, can you draw me a picture please? We knotted rather than stitched because she wanted to get back up in the air, good girl :)Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CRWBUDDHA 0 #11 May 10, 2003 By the rules we all pretend to operate under, I would suggest you might consider looking up this one: Q. Who is responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of a skydiving parachute system? Note: the question does not state or ask who is licensed to make repairs, alterations or assembly and packing. Yep, sometimes lessons learned are hard ones. Sorry about your friend and I hope this episode will make her stronger and perhaps a mentor to others, helping to prevent any more of these complacent injuries. Buddha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichM 0 #12 May 26, 2003 I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for substandard workmanship on a piece of life saving equipment. Plenty of non riggers wouldn't have even seen this. I had to look at the other brake toggle for a few minutes before I figured out what the problem was.Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
