LawnDart21 0 #1 February 3, 2005 Okay, I have some questions. 1) While the Nitro isn't in the same class as a VX or Xaos, it is still considered to be a relatively HP canopy when highly loaded. What purpose is served by jumping a highly loaded HP canopy if you don't swoop? 2) HIPERUSA's website says quite clearly that one should only jump a Nitro loaded above 1.4 if the jumper has over 500 jumps. They go on to say that 1.7 is the max wing loading on it. (Your at 1.75)? 3)You state "In reality I know I can be hurt or killed very easily under the canopy I'm jumping", then why do it? oh yeah, because your different. In just under 2000 jumps (I havent updated my profile), I can say with confidence that I never put myself under a canopy that I felt could "very easily hurt or kill me". Growing old with my wife, my family and paying off my mortgage were more important to me than knowingly putting myself in such a position that you advocate very freely. Today I can (SAFELY)swoop from one end of a football field the other. Could I do it at 400 jumps? Nope. Did I need to do it at 400 jumps? Nope. tfelber, this next point isnt directed at you persay, but its something I've heard/read alot lately. The attitude of "I understand the risks, accept the risks, yada yada yada." These posts/comments are retarded in my mind. Seriously, ask the wives, children, family and friends if they understand the risks of you being on such a highly loaded canopy with such little experience. They are the ones that may have to bury you if you hook it in, they are the ones that may have to grow up without you. They are the ones that would miss you. Do you (the jumper) accept the risk? Who cares. Your not the one left behind or left with the medical bills, or left pushing the wheelchair around. Well, I've about said all i can say on this thread. Good luck to you all. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #2 February 3, 2005 >What purpose is served by jumping a highly loaded HP canopy if you don't swoop? I jump a Nitro at just under 2:1. I don't swoop much - at most I do a front riser 90 to landing. I like how the canopy opens, flies and lands, which is why I bought it (after demoing it.) Not everyone buys a small elliptical so they can swoop it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #3 February 3, 2005 Seriously though Bill, what's the reasoning in that? Spiralling around randomly isn't possible (not if you're a considerate pilot) under canopies loaded like that. So that means upping all the risks for no returns? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Am I missing something? Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #4 February 3, 2005 I wasn't advocating my actions or anyone elses. I was simply stating something I have learned in regards to human beings from some very extensive, intense research. EVERYBODY thinks they are different. Some try to prove it. Generally humans are not open to suggestion, they must be enrolled in the conversation and usually it is easiest if they think they came up with the solution themselves. Hence the revelation of "I've learned from my mistakes" I know I'm not different. I'm the same as everybody else in that I think I'm different. The question presented by Jeff was "How do we get through to these people?" The answer is you don't. You can have conversation that make a difference in their lives, but your not going to tell them the way it is. It ultimately lies in an area where they don't know what they don't know. To expound on this a little... Let's say there is this whole are of knowledge, everything known. There is a small fragment of this that you can say you know that you know; how to type, speak english, use a compter, etc. There is an almost equal amount of knowledge that you know you don't know; I don't know how to do heart surgery, I don't know how to speak french, etc. You have access to the things that you know you don't know; I can study french, I can enroll in a university to become a doctor.... However, there is this much larger area of knowledge that is mostly inaccessable. This area can best be called "what you don't know you don't know" and until you are enlightened through conversation you have no access to this knowldge. It is through exploration of the didn't know I didn't know that I was able to expand my understanding of how a human being works, first myself and later others. And it's from this new understanding that I am able to see that people believe they are different. Ironically, some people try to be normal just to prove how different they are. I have much more experience with the edge than my jump numbers illustrate. I didn't start jumping until I was 35, but I have participated in other far more dangerous activities in my life. Skydiving to me is kinda safe and at the same time thrilling. You can go as close to the edge as you wish or you can stay away from it. But it is always present! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #5 February 3, 2005 QuoteSeriously though Bill, what's the reasoning in that? Why do people buy Ferraris or Vipers? Part of it is about looking good, but many people do it so they can haul ass occasionaly. I like the speed my Nitro has on a straght in or 90 degree landing. In order to get that same effect from my 165 I would have to push the edge and take a more risky approach. Can I get myself in trouble, without a doubt. When I did the New Years Eve jump that thought was very much on my mind. But generally I can have as much fun as I want under my Nitro without the need to get very radical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #6 February 3, 2005 >what's the reasoning in that? I could come up with a bunch of reasons that sound good (and are indeed valid) - - at that loading I can make sure I land first, both to reduce traffic over the landing area and make sure the pattern gets set the right way - I can penetrate wind a lot more effectively - I can turn the canopy easily while it's opening with just weight shift; handy for crowded skies - I have more control in the flare; I can pop up and over people if I have to during the start of the planeout But the main reason is just that I like how it flies and lands at that loading. It takes some skill to be able to land that canopy well, and I liked learning (and now staying proficient) on those skills. My meager swooping skills (i.e. 90 front riser turns) are gradually improving, and I think this canopy is a good canopy to learn such skills on. Is it riskier? Yep. I have downsized about as gradually as humanly possible (since I didn't have access to canopy control courses when I started out) but there's no doubt that I could jump a Pilot 150 and be at much less risk. Indeed, I switch to the Pilot 150 when I'm doing very large formations (100+) because it gives me more time to react to problems at opening time (and more slow-flight range to fit into a crowded pattern.) But I still like the Nitro for fun jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #7 February 3, 2005 Fair enough Thanks for the reply. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #8 February 4, 2005 How confident do you feel about flying and landing your reserve at your w/l? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #9 February 4, 2005 QuoteSeriously though Bill, what's the reasoning in that? Spiralling around randomly isn't possible (not if you're a considerate pilot) under canopies loaded like that. So that means upping all the risks for no returns? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Am I missing something? Eliptical needs to be seperated from high performance landings. Tapered and "eliptical" canopies have lower toggle and riser pressures. OFten they open softer than rectangular counterparts.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #10 February 4, 2005 QuoteTapered and "eliptical" canopies have lower toggle and riser pressures. OFten they open softer than rectangular counterparts. Yeah, I get that, my point was more on loading it up so highly. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 February 4, 2005 Yeah, I figgured that out as I read furthur....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #13 February 4, 2005 Do you consider the w/l on your reserve to be appropriate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #14 February 4, 2005 Appropriate for what? Maybe you need to define what you mean by appropriate. Am I worried about going to my reserve, not at all!!! Do I think it will save my life if I need it, I wouldn't jump with it otherwise!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #15 February 4, 2005 Me thinks what chrisgr is asking is whether or not you think you can land your reserve loaded 1.6:1 in a back yard full of obstacles if you have to? Alot of reserve rides (especially in the wooded northeast and I presume wooded nortwest don't always leave the pilot much, if any options). I would jump a 113 reserve loaded 1.85 if I was jumping in AZ, up here though where houses and trees are a plenty, we don't consider highly loading reserves to be a builing block for a long healthy career. Houses just don't move out of the way...............lol. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #16 February 4, 2005 He’s a freeflier who loads a 135 at 1.74. That puts him at ~ 235 lbs out the door. Ask him what he thinks will happen to his Swift reserve when it is deployed at high speeds with him underneath it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #17 February 7, 2005 Smaller canopies are significantly stronger than larger ones, due to the shorter distance between ribs, and the more suspension lines per square foot. This came from someone who works at PD. The specs canopy manufacturers put out are often geared toward the target market for the canopy. The discussion I had with PD was regarding the Sabre2, which is an 'all-around' canopy (an awsome one at that!), but can be safely loaded up much higher than what the web site says. This may not pertain to reserves - I didn't ask. I'm loading my reserve higher than I'd like, but it's the largest reserve I can fit in my container. The skydiving market doesn't cater to large jumpers (I'm 6'4" ~270 exit weight). I'm not concerned about landing it, or opening speeds, but I do worry about being unconcious under a highly loaded reserve. Once PD comes out with their new reserves with smaller pack volumes, I'll be upsizing. Until then, I'm doing the best with what I have to work with... Jeff ps- I'm not fat, I'm big boned!!! Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
