bsoder 0 #26 February 11, 2004 QuoteGood! Below about 1000 feet, your altimeter becomes less and less useful (it's not accurate to more than about 300 feet) and your attention should be on other traffic, wind socks etc. I didn't realize they got that inaccurate down low, I was under the impression they got MORE accurate the closer to 0 you got. Is that the case with all alts, mechanical and digital? As a total coincidence, my altimeter (Digitude) failed somehow this past weekend. I was on my way up for a hop-n-pop, we got to ~5K and my alt was showing 1300 feet. I jumped anyway and just ignored the alt, figured not a big deal especially with an h&p. I didn't look at the alt until I was on the ground again, and my landing spot was better than 90% of my previous ones. Since then (mabye 5-6 jumps) I've deliberately ignored my alt while landing and I'm finding that my spots are better, probably because I'm paying more attention to my external cues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #27 February 11, 2004 ***Was wondering if a braked turn would of been more appropriate at that altitude. ------------------------------------ There was no 'turn', it was a heading correction. Braked turns should be reserved for emergency obstacle avoidence. A down or crosswind landing in a clear area is preferable to a braked turn, If the turn is preformed improperly, you risk increasing your decent rate (and the severity of the subsequent impact). A down or cross wind landing will have a similar decent rate to an into the wind landing. Your horizontal speed will be higher, but that is easier to mitigate with a PLF or butt slide of some sort. In the landing in question, the question was asked if half brakes might have helped. After the canopy had planned out, and lost it's forward speed, half brakes would have prevented the surge the canopy makes to regain airspeed. It would have also maintained the diminished airspeed down to the flare height, which would have translated into a weak/non-existant flare (due to the reduced airspeed). If you let the canopy go to full flight, when it surges forward, and your weight swings back, you need to pedulum forward under the canopy in order to facilltate the nose pitching up, and the canopy ultimately flaring. If your altitude is just right, you risk hitting the ground during this forward pendulum motion. We already know you won't have any flare (there is a delay between your weight coming forward, and the canopy actaully slowing down), but now you add the extra motion of your pendulum, and risk added speed/force at impact. If you do have enough altitude, you will have a great flare, and probably get a nice little swoop out of it. Here's the rub: If you go to half brakes, you are guaranteed a weak flare, and harder than normal landing. If you choose full flight, you may recover and get a good landing, OR you may pedulum yourself into the ground, and impact worse than a half-brakes landing. Yes, it is possible to land some canpoies in half-brakes without a problem. In this situation, we are discussing less than ideal conditions, a last minute decision, and a canopy which is recovering from a less than optimal configuration for its altitude. All of these factors point toward a different outcome than a planned half braked approach and landing in more favorable conditions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #28 February 17, 2004 QuoteAs I went back to full flight, my canopy DOVE....lost all life Were the toggles lighter than normal on the flair? Was it way easy to flair the canopy? And as always, when in doubt PLF."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #29 February 17, 2004 Quote Were the toggles lighter than normal on the flair? Was it way easy to flair the canopy? Yup...way lighter...felt like nothing slamming them down...no resistance. If you watch the video frame by frame you see me flare QUICKLY and actually looking like I would have been flaring a bit early as the ground was rushing straight up quickly...and there was just no response.. Quote And as always, when in doubt PLF. *nodsnods* if it were second nature...I probably would have. However, by the time I realized my flare was ineffective and I even knew that the landing was going to be anything different than normal......I was already on my butt going, "Whoah...what the heck was THAT??" I didn't even have that moment of "Uh oh, this is going to hurt...", it happened so quickly I was stunned.... I absolutely without a doubt should have PLF'd....I just...didn't. It wasn't second nature right then... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #30 February 17, 2004 QuoteYup...way lighter...felt like nothing slamming them down...no resistance. If you watch the video frame by frame you see me flare QUICKLY and actually looking like I would have been flaring a bit early as the ground was rushing straight up quickly...and there was just no response.. It happens...It is caused by the canopy flying in winds less than it needs. The canopy stalls (like a regular wing) And it just falls. It can be caused by a downdraft, rotor..ect like Bill mentioned, or it can becaused by flying behind an object that suddenly cuts your wind, or just by a really sudden drop in the winds...If the winds gusted to 18, then dropped to zero....You get dropped on your ass. Quoteif it were second nature...I probably would have. However, by the time I realized my flare was ineffective and I even knew that the landing was going to be anything different than normal......I was already on my butt going, "Whoah...what the heck was THAT??" I didn't even have that moment of "Uh oh, this is going to hurt...", it happened so quickly I was stunned.... I absolutely without a doubt should have PLF'd....I just...didn't. It wasn't second nature right then... How do you plan on fixing that?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #31 February 17, 2004 Quote How do you plan on fixing that? Heh... lessons learned: 1. if you have a problem with one toggle and must land it, put both hands together for the flare. You will either flare both evenly, or you will NOT flare both evenly - be prepared to PLF....but do not try to flare them without grabbing hands or you will turn and drive yourself into the ground. thank God that He taught you this lesson without breaking you. 2. Avoid the tarmac. road rash stings..for a LONG time.. 3. Always do a safety check..and always check your handles at least 5 times in the airplane even if you think you checked them on the ground. (I caught a tucked-under pud because I stick to this rule) 4. Never try to clear a mal more than 2 times. 2 times is the rule. don't care what altitude you started, 2 tries and NO MORE. 5. ALWAYS be ready for a PLF. Come into the landing looking at traffic, looking at where you will land, head up, prepared to flare...and be ready for anything. Be ready to lose lift...be ready for wind to shift...be ready for someone to walk in front of you..and be ready to PLF that biffed landing if ANYTHING happens. Those are the lessons that I have had to teach myself thus far that thankfully I've learned without serious injury or death. #5, I hope, answers your question. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzit 0 #32 February 17, 2004 QuoteALWAYS be ready for a PLF. Come into the landing looking at traffic, looking at where you will land, head up, prepared to flare...and be ready for anything. Be ready to lose lift...be ready for wind to shift...be ready for someone to walk in front of you..and be ready to PLF that biffed landing if ANYTHING happens. Yep...good lesson to learn. A good PLF may not stop you from getting injured...but it just may save your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #33 February 17, 2004 Simply looks like the crosswind was too much for the small amount of toggle input you gave at the low altitude. Then your flare looked a little too late. Just land crosswind if you aren't getting any response from the toggles at such a low altitude. Landing faster than you would like is better than bouncing and busting your coccyx. PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #34 February 17, 2004 Quote Then your flare looked a little too late. Ok...so you made me go back and watch the video for the 50+ time... Flared too late?? Now..to me, it looks like I flared early (which is what it felt like at the time, too), just that there wasn't any response to the flare. At least, earlier than I normally do.. just watched it yet again...3 more times..and paused it right when I flared...and I'm still probably 6 feet off the ground... how early do YOU flare? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kurt 0 #35 February 19, 2004 I think, the flare is a bit late. But you where flying in a downwind turbulence/gust Mayeby some obstacles in front of you? Trees/ building? and be prepaired...PLF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #36 February 19, 2004 Quote Mayeby some obstacles in front of you? Trees/ building? and be prepaired...PLF Nope...no obsticles..no trees or anything in front of me...ahead of me was a large grassy landing area...on the other side of that was the runway... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #37 February 19, 2004 I cannot be certain, but I feel fairly confident I am starting my flare before I am only 6 feet off the ground. Maybe closer to 10. I'd rather have a little drop at the end than to flare late and smack my butt into the ground ( did that a few times) Hey guess what? Sometimes crap happens. Glad you are ok. PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
