stadium demo jumps

[MAHODJ31 0]

I was wondering everyones thoughts on what skill level someone should be before attempting a stadium demo jump. I know the regulations say you should have a pro rating but I have seen cadets from west point perform them and I am unsure if they have the the 500 necessary jumps

[matt91078 0]

I am a current West Point Cadet and skydiver at The Ranch. I am not on the school's jump team, but I do know that the USPA grants the team members restricted Pro-ratings until they acquire 500 jumps for the unrestricted Pro-rating. The people that jump into the stadium are usually seniors with around 550-650 jumps.

[happythoughts 0]

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I was wondering everyones thoughts on what skill level someone should be before attempting a stadium demo jump.

Seldom a casual comment.

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I know the regulations say you should have a pro rating but...

There's is no "but".

Remember the part of the FJC about rotors off of fixed objects ? Imagine a stadium as a really big fixed object and you are really close to it.

[Guest]

You've got 8 jumps, go for it. Might as well do it at a night game, and be sure to fly a smaller canopy, I hear they fly faster. Prettier too.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[Guest]

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>I am a current West Point Cadet and skydiver at The Ranch.

Thank you for your service (or upcoming service) to our country. One of the things I miss now that I'm out (enlisted) is the rendering of salutes between men and women who respect each other. There isn't really a significant counterpart to that in the civilian world. [/hijack]

Blue ones

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[slotperfect 7]

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You've got 8 jumps, go for it. Might as well do it at a night game, and be sure to fly a smaller canopy, I hear they fly faster. Prettier too.

If you had taken the time to answer the question, this person might have seen that it requires a great deal of skill, and may have learned the requisite list of basic skills he should work on if he wants to make jumping in to stadiums a future goal of his.

Of course, at 39 jumps, you don't have the experience to answer his question either. Instead you choose to bash him for asking a reasonable question. Nice tactics.

Arrive Safely

John

[slotperfect 7]

Stadium jumps are difficult, but can be done safely if you adhere to a few basic rules. In a true bowl type stadium, the winds on the ground are most often opposite what they are outside the stadium, because of the effect of the shape of the structure. Also, once you have committed yourself, there are no outs. On top of all that, you have all of the spectators you are responsible for. Land in the seats, and you not only hurt yourself, but someone else as well.

The PRO requirements are there for a good reason. If you want to make a stadium jump someday, I have this advice for you:


-finish your student progression and earn your A License, getting very good at the tasks on the A License proficiency card.

-after you have become proficient in the basic skydiving survival skills, work on the rest of this list . . .

-learn to spot for yourself and others. This is becoming a lost art, but you can find someone at the DZ who is good at it who is willing to teach you.

-get very good at interpreting the weather conditions and using them to your advantage to land accurately on an intended target. When you board the plane, and (especially) again after you open, ask yourself three questions: Wind direction? Wind Velocity? Wind temperature? Know how each of those elements makes your canopy perform and how to overcome extremes of each.

-go to school on turbulence. Learn what causes it and what effect it ha on your canopy. Learn what obstacles are the worst for causing turbulence and how to gauge where you can place yourself to be out of any trash coming off buildings, trees, etc.

-always choose a target. Land accurately as a matter of course.

-don't be in a hurry - master the skills that will keep you and the crowd safe before you tackle a stadium

Arrive Safely

John

[John4455 0]

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I am a current West Point Cadet and skydiver at The Ranch. I am not on the school's jump team, but I do know that the USPA grants the team members restricted Pro-ratings until they acquire 500 jumps for the unrestricted Pro-rating. The people that jump into the stadium are usually seniors with around 550-650 jumps.

Having said that, I would like to ad that there is a big difference in 500 "training" jumps and 500 "yahoo" type jumps. There is a couple of guys that visit our dropzone when they are home that go to the Airforce Acadamy in Colorado. Their accuracy skills are amazing for such young jumpers. I wish I had started at such a young age under those circumstances!

How do ya like it Johnny?

[matt91078 0]

A quick look at the USPA past and current 02-04 Collegiate Champions http://www.uspa.org/competition/collegiate.htm shows that most of all the 1-3 place finishers came from either West Point or the Air Force Academy for accuracy. You are very right in that coached jumps & landing with video and debriefing every time will elevate your skill level quickly.

[BikerBabe 0]

The cadets on the West Point and USAFA teams are not required to have a USPA PRO rating to jump into what would normally be considered a PRO-rating-required demo.

I was on the USAFA demo team as a cadet, and I had approximately 200 jumps and was jumping into airshows and stadiums. I'm not sure if it's changed, but most cadets on the Wings of Blue don't have 500 jumps when they graduate due to various reasons.

That being said, the military follows MUCH stricter rules when performing demos into any venue. You will always see a WDI drop, always see several ground crew members, and often see a cancellation due to weather conditions, especially for the younger cadet teams.

-A

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[mjosparky 3]

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The cadets on the West Point and USAFA teams are not required to have a USPA PRO rating to jump into what would normally be considered a PRO-rating-required demo.

I was on the USAFA demo team as a cadet, and I had approximately 200 jumps and was jumping into airshows and stadiums. I'm not sure if it's changed, but most cadets on the Wings of Blue don't have 500 jumps when they graduate due to various reasons.

That being said, the military follows MUCH stricter rules when performing demos into any venue. You will always see a WDI drop, always see several ground crew members, and often see a cancellation due to weather conditions, especially for the younger cadet teams.

-A

USAFA and West Point teams are considered "DOD" teams and are exempt from most FAA requirements. But as you stated, their requirements are much tighter. I was told by a National Director that stadium jumps now require 1000 jumps and a pro rating.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Guest]

If you hang around here and in the sport, you'll find that when someone is a jerk to you (like I was) someone else will most likely come along, often a senior person in the sport, who is really cool. Don't let the jerks weigh you down, the cool people more than make up for it.

-----

Now to your post. I'm a technical writer. I have a pretty good idea what may go on behind the scenes to produce the SIM. I expect that some of its content is discussed for weeks, months and years as to its inclusion or exclusion in the SIM/BSRs/FARs. People taking part in the discussion would include people who have been jumping for a long time. If you are dismissing their efforts to provide this information to you, that strikes me as being unwise. If you are not, then I took the wrong tone from your post, definitely my bad.

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See the posts above, evidently USPA requires PRO and 1000 jumps now.

From the available literature:

It appears that the regulations don't actually require a PRO rating for stadium jumps. It appears that what is required is an approved FAA Form 7711-2, Application for Certificate of Waiver or Authorization. The FAA then sends you a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization FAA Form 7711-1. It is needed because of 14 CFR 105.21 (a).

BUT, to get the cert approved requires either a USPA PRO rating or the ability to demonstrate proficiency to the FAA if you don't have a PRO rating. The 2005 SIM speaks to that in sections 7-1 C and 7-2 A. My hunch is the PRO rating will remove many hassles from dealing with the FAA.

You can search for "7711" here or google FAA Form 7711 and find more information about it, it's looks like its a more-or-less typical piece of govt bureauracy CYA. This is an FAA page about getting 14 CFR waivers.

Since the academy folks are military jumpers (only into home games?) they may be covered by the general military exclusions of 14 CFR 105.1 (c) or 14 CFR 105.25 (d). Or since they are often national accuracy champs that may take care of it on the proficiency side.

References:

14 CFR 105.21 (a):
(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, over or into a congested area of a city, town, or or settlement, or an open-air assembly of persons unless a certificate of authorization for that parachute operation has been issued under this section. However, a parachutist may drift over a congested area or an open-air assembly of persons with a fully deployed and properly functioning parachute if that parachutist is at a sufficient altitude to avoid creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface.

SIM 7-1 C 2:
2. Level 2 and Stadium, as defined by USPA and accepted by the FAA (all of the following):
a. hold the USPA PRO rating (required by the BSRs)
b. 50 jumps within the past 12 months
c. five jumps within the previous 60 days using the samd model and size canopy to be used on the demonstration jump

SIM 7-2 A:
1. Working in conjunction with the FAA, the USPA issues Professional Exhibition (PRO) Ratings to any USPA member who has met the current requirements for the rating.
a. This rating identifies the jumper as highly proficient and accurate in canopy control.
b. A PRO Rating holder is also knowledgeable in the areas of coordination with the Federal Aviation Administration, obtaining insurance coverage, and providing a professional demonstration of skills.
2. A USPA PRO Rating is not required for all demonstration jumps, but may be a valuable advantage in working with the FAA.
3. The PRO Rating is recognized by the FAA and serves as a certificate of proficiency.

14 CFR 105.1 (c):
(c) Sections 105.5, 105.9, 105.13, 105.15, 105.17, 105.19 through 105.23, 105.25(a)(1) and 105.27 of this part do not apply to a parachute operation conducted by a member of an Armed Force--
(1) Over or within a restricted area when that area is under the control of an Armed Force.
(2) During military operations in uncontrolled airspace.

14 CFR 105.25 (d):
(d) Paragraph (a)(3) of this section does not apply to a parachute operation conducted by a member of an Armed Force within a restricted area that extends upward from the surface when that area is under the control of an Armed Force.

Blue Skies

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[matthewcline 0]

The DOD only "Officially" recognizess the Golden Knights and Leap Frogs as "DOD" Sanctioned.

The FAA "genrally" accepts all DOD supported Teams as long as they have a history and good reputation along with nive neat paperwork so that they do not have to do to much leg work.

The various military teams tend to work in "their territory" and develope a good repore with the local FAA FSDO. These teams have such a good repore that the FSDO will issue another team a 7711-1 and call it the "82nd Airborne Standard waiver" or the "USASOC Standard waiver" or what ever but youe get the idea.

On another note;

Stadium jumps are the hardest solo landing to make in all skydiving (my opinion) and the standards are there for a reason.

Yes a person can do all the demos they would like with out being a part of uspa or even licensed by them. but the FAA would like to know at least 1 other person has seen your skills and can vouch for you.

most of the FSDO's do not jump and do not know the difficulty in making that landing on the 50 yard line in Soldier Field during half time.

As the Team Leader for the "Screaming Eagles" i made sure I help to education as well as understand the FSDO's I worked with.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mjosparky 3]

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The DOD only "Officially" recognizess the Golden Knights and Leap Frogs as "DOD" Sanctioned.

The FAA "genrally" accepts all DOD supported Teams as long as they have a history and good reputation along with nive neat paperwork so that they do not have to do to much leg work.

The various military teams tend to work in "their territory" and develope a good repore with the local FAA FSDO. These teams have such a good repore that the FSDO will issue another team a 7711-1 and call it the "82nd Airborne Standard waiver" or the "USASOC Standard waiver" or what ever but youe get the idea.

On another note;

Stadium jumps are the hardest solo landing to make in all skydiving (my opinion) and the standards are there for a reason.

Yes a person can do all the demos they would like with out being a part of uspa or even licensed by them. but the FAA would like to know at least 1 other person has seen your skills and can vouch for you.

most of the FSDO's do not jump and do not know the difficulty in making that landing on the 50 yard line in Soldier Field during half time.

As the Team Leader for the "Screaming Eagles" i made sure I help to education as well as understand the FSDO's I worked with.

Matt

Matt,

I agree with you and have spent a great deal of time with the FSDO's in my area getting them used to seeing my smiling face and providing them with as much information as they will accept.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[matthewcline 0]

Thank You!

Demos are a very positive side effect of our sport. But done wrong they can be more negative than 2 or 3 good demos could ever be positive.

Getting to know the FAR's, USPA BSR's and your local FSDO is esential if you want t ostart that "positive side effect".

Matt

I really should re-read so my spelling is correct.
Oh well no sense in editing it now.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!