goose491 0 #26 August 22, 2005 Well! The 'decision' made on the best course of action is... to have made a decision that you will stick to and drill to stick to it. The reason for this is because there are examples of people surviving by doing it either way... and there are examples of people dying by doing either way. I have chosen not to cutaway first. This is my reasoning: -Examples where people have died from cutting away first stem from the deploying reserve snagging and being choked by the leaving main. -Examples where people have died from not cutting away first stem from two out scenarios but in each case, the main was deployed after being stood up by the reserve. That is what tips the scale for me. I figure two major factors convince me that it's a better choice not to. 1) A pilot chute in tow is a high speed mal. You pitch, nothing happens, you look over your shoulder at it (spilling air over your shoulder... going faster) and still nothing, you decide to take action... that's a lot of time -and altitude- lost, why waist more time on cutting away? 2) Every time I hear of someone getting in trouble with a two out after a pilot chute in tow, it's been after reserve deployment or near it's end. Why not just keep that in mind and ask myself to check? I am positive I can be aware enough to determine if my d-bag left my back after the reserve left the packtray, if the main leaves my back, then I'll chop. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #27 August 22, 2005 Before you decide that's always the case, you might want to read this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1471198;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Cutaway or not, there are still two bags headed up at the same time (when the main releases from the container when the tension is reduced by the reserve deployment). Entanglement can happen either way. There have been several entanglement fatalities where the jumper chose not to cutaway, this is just the most recent I know of... Either EP procedure can still result in death. Prevention of the scenario is the only sure cure. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #28 August 22, 2005 Thanks Ramjet, One thing struck me early upon reading that post though: QuoteAfter pulling the hand deploy, the main did not open, as chute was entangled with bridle. (emphasis mine) You see, when I think of "Pilot Chute in Tow" I think: I wave off and pitch, nothing happens so I look back and I see my pilot chute is out, it's not dancing around in my burble or nothing but there, possibly fully inflated... failing to do it's job. "Chute entangled with bridle" sounds a little more messy than that. It's a high speed mal of course but is it a "Pilot Chute in Tow"? or is it a "Pilot Chute, D-bag, bridle and some lines in tow"?... because I'm definitely definitely chopping the latter if that's what I encounter. My decision not to cutaway a Pilot Chute in Tow is referring to a pilot chute in tow and nothing else, in which case, the D-bad is still on my back and if it leaves even at the same time as my freebag, I'm sure the reserve will beat the main in terms of deploying... I can decide to chop the main then if I want. If the D-bag is already off my back and is tangled up with my bridal and whatnot... I classify that as a "Ball of garbage" or "Bag of laundry" mal and it's going to be chopped. Does that make sense or perhaps am I missing something? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #29 August 22, 2005 I took the meaning as Pilot Chute entangled with bridle.... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #30 August 22, 2005 QuoteI took the meaning as Pilot Chute entangled with bridle.... Ah! Like there's a knot or something in the bridle, disallowing the pilot chute from inflating enough to pull the pin? I don't know. To me, if the D-bad is still on my back, I'm not taking the extra time to cut it away. It's funny, I had this discussion just last night with a friend. Pilot chute in tow and I'm firing the reserve. I'm going to have my hand on the cutaway though... and my plan is to cutaway if the d-bad leaves my back. buh... that's just what I'm "rehearsing" in my mind. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #31 August 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteI took the meaning as Pilot Chute entangled with bridle.... Ah! Like there's a knot or something in the bridle, disallowing the pilot chute from inflating enough to pull the pin? I don't know. To me, if the D-bad is still on my back, I'm not taking the extra time to cut it away. It's funny, I had this discussion just last night with a friend. Pilot chute in tow and I'm firing the reserve. I'm going to have my hand on the cutaway though... and my plan is to cutaway if the d-bad leaves my back. buh... that's just what I'm "rehearsing" in my mind. Yes, exactly like that and still a PC in tow. You have enough jumps to make an educated decision on your EPs and I will let you do that. Keep in mind though that if you think you will do your EPs differently for one situation vs another, you will probably be surprised when/if the situation arises that you will do your primary EPs. A number of people have tried even basic changes, like one hand on each handle vs two hands one at a time and found that in the actual emergency, they reverted to the originally trained EP. I've seen two PC in tow mals personally. One over my own back (read the other thread above) while testing hand deploy for Booth and I had time to deal with it as it was a TEST JUMP. The other, the jumper chose not to cutaway and the reserve entagled with the main into a perfect horseshoe mal. If the jumper had cutaway even after the horseshoe, he would still be with us (probably as there was no line entaglement, just apex to apex stuff). As I said earlier, either choice can still end in a fatality, you have to look at past incidents, think about how things are moving during a simultaneous deployment and make your decision. Before riser covers and free bags, I would have pulled silver, now I would cutaway first. Either way, it's a risk and I stress that the best cure is to avoid the situation by maintaining your gear, using a properly sized pilot chute, and if you must use a collapsible PC, make sure it's cocked! ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #32 August 23, 2005 You know those photographs of malfunctions that your instructor shows you as you practice your EPs? Are those photos available anywhere on the internet?Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airricks 0 #33 August 23, 2005 I have this file that has pics of different canopy malfunctions, someone on here posted it at one point, I can't remember who. There's no pilot chute in tow pic though...Its over 1mb so it won't upload here so if anyone wants it PM me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
