Apprenticeship

[MooU 0]

With all due respect (look at my jump numbers I humbly admit I know nothing about this sport) why isn't there an apprenticeship status after the student status?
A level of training that accompanies the next 25 jumps or the B license, whichever comes first, where you're on your own but have an assigned 'trainer', 'mentor' , 'teacher', someone with experience to call, e-mail or whatever when the apprentice makes a change to their rig, canopy, dive plan, etc. Manifest could monitor it as they do when they check for currency. Manufactures or sellers could ask buyers who they are apprenticing with when the buyer makes a purchase.
After reading several posts about safety concerns with newbees, I'm suggesting this option because I see it working every day (went through it myself as a pharmacy resident) with medical/surgical residents. It's a level of skill where you're on your own but not if you get really stuck or try to do something stupid.
I will now put on my flame retardant jump suit - flame away people. What do you think?

TPM #59 POPS #9849 PMS #477

[NelKel 0]

With all due respect (look at my jump numbers I humbly admit I know nothing about this sport)<<<<

I will now put on my flame retardant jump suit - flame away people. What do you think?<<<<

I think it is sad, (not your idea) you must have been lurking here long enough to have seen other newbie get shit upon before. I praise you, it must have taken alot of courage to post it.

It is a good idea, but I think if you need further mentoring you could just ask your old instructor or another jumper you respect. The SIM's is a good place to start. See section 5-8 and beyond.

Good luck!

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[NWFlyer 2]

I haven't been in this sport a lot longer than you, but here's some theories ... not saying I agree with all of them, just thoughts on why something like this doesn't exist.

1) The "You're Responsible for Yourself" Theory.
There's a strong belief in self-sufficiency in this sport; the mentoring/coaching is out there, but the newbie has to go out and ask for it. No one's going to save your life but you ... get out there and learn.

2) The "People are Already Looking Out for You" Theory.
This sport is one big happy supportive family and the more experienced jumpers/people in charge/gear sellers/etc. are always looking out for the newbies so why would we need something formal?

3) The "Keep USPA Off Our Backs" Theory.
Don't get USPA involved in much more of our lives for fear that it will create more bureaucracy, fees, paperwork, hassle, hoops to jump through, whatever.

4) The "This Sport is Becoming Too Soft Already" Theory.
Back in the day we had military surplus gear and round parachutes you kids already have it too easy these days...

5) The "No One's Bothered Yet" Theory.
No one's bothered to try/propose something like this.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[MooU 0]

Yes, you are right, I have seen others get hammered pretty hard on this forum.
I guess I didn't explain myself very well, I ask
about the idea of an apprentice status not just
for myself but for everyone as a way to improve safety. I have been very lucky as a student to have really great instructors. I have always asked a lot of questions of all of them and I've always gotten good answers. I will continue to ask my instructors questions - and listen to their advice.

TPM #59 POPS #9849 PMS #477

[Liemberg 0]

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The "No One's Bothered Yet" Theory.

Now go and humbly apologize to
skratch

(I thought all you kid's had google nowadays...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[NWFlyer 2]

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The "No One's Bothered Yet" Theory.

Now go and humbly apologize to
skratch

(I thought all you kid's had google nowadays...)

See, that's why I count on all you old timers to remind me of all the stuff I'm too new/young to remember.

Remember, I said these are theories. Ready to be tested and proven/disproven.

[MooU 0]

Thanks for the insight NWFlyer. Some of the theories I agree with, and like you, some I don't. There are never easy answers....

1) You're responsible for yourself - Absolutely. Without question - I am the only one hauling my ass out of the door on every jump. I am always responsible for my behavior/safety. Period. Unfortunately some people think they already know everything and have no need to ask anyone anything, so they, as newbies will not ask for advice and do not learn.

2) People are already looking out for you - Well, maybe, but I sure wouldn't want to bet my life on it.

3) Keep the USPA off our Backs - Gotta agree with this one. I don't like regulation anymore than anyone else. An apprenticeship program would extend USPA
paperwork, etc.

4) The sport is becoming to soft already - This is the 21st century people! We now have anitbiotics and indoor plumbing. Maybe the proponents of this theory like outhouses and dying of simple wound infections but I'll take a pass.

5) No one's bothered yet - Well I bothered to ask because I'm bothered by a lack of safety that might be remedied with a little guidance and continued education.

TPM #59 POPS #9849 PMS #477

[Liemberg 0]

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that's why I count on all you old timers to remind me of all the stuff I'm too new/young to remember.

And the trouble with us old timers is probably that we are inclined to take "the obvious" for granted.

More times during my skydiving career than I care to remember, I have seen people do something very stupid and end up in the hospital. Yet in the heath of the moment it wasn't as clear for them as it was for me, that they were acting stupid and dangerous...

None of them "femured" on purpose - femuring hurts.

Examples? A guy who after a bad spot gets so fixated on flying back to the place where he's supposed to land that he ends up turning too radical, too close to the ground. Any time during the last minute of the descent, he could have turned against the wind and land safely. If he had turned 10 seconds earlier he would have walked away. Now he femured close to the landing site.
Another guy who is so fixated with landing against the (almost non existing) wind that he ends up turning too radical, too close to the ground. If he hadn't finished the turn when it was clear to him that he was already too close, he would have walked away. Now he almost femured (as *luck* would have it he only tore off the bands in his knee joint...)
Another guy who cracked two vertebra when avoiding the EMPTY airplane parking lot (parking lot = "forbidden landing area")
People who - when not landing into the wind - again and again stretch out one arm "in the direction from where the ground is coming too fast", only intensifying the effect. People who don't flare 'automatically' with equal toggle pressure. People who don't 'hit the brakes / make a braked turn' when in the last part of the descent their landing area is obstructed.

My problem is that it is always the same story - yet it has to be told again and again, to different people...

So, what is obvious for me, apparently isn't obvious for people who started later in the game.

Also, when I'm preferring to be rather safe than sorry (and tell *the obvious* twice or more), I get the "Are you becoming senile? You told that yesterday and the day before" response once in a while.

If that happens twice in a row, I'll conclude that I should shut up and let the ground take care of "further education"...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[riggerrob 558]

Several different organizations: CSPA, USPA, Skydive University, etc. have tried various forms of coaching and mentor programs, but skydivers always whine that they are too expensive and "rip off junior jumpers for what should be free."
Mentoring may have been "free" back in the good old days, but you needed big breasts or big beer kegs to get the attention of senior skydivers who were willing to mentor.
These days, fewer junior jumpers bring beer, so fewer and fewer senior jumpers "pay their own slot" to teach intermediate skills to junior jumpers.

[peek 20]

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Another guy who cracked two vertebra when avoiding the EMPTY airplane parking lot (parking lot = "forbidden landing area")

Unfortunately I think this could often be caused by all of the idiots yelling "beer" when someone lands in places like these. Peer pressure working against the student.

For this reason I find myself emphasizing to students that it is much safer to land on pavement in a controlled manner than to do something rash to avoid it.

[Jackpunx 0]

We have.. or I consider this to be "a mentor program" Skills Camps, LO's and experienced skydiver that you get to know as you go to the DZ more often..
I have found all the information Ive needed and more just by showing up.. There are so many people that would love to take you under wing if you are willing to put in some work and commitment. That has been my experience..
Maybe it has something to do with my DZ (Perris) not sure.. There are people out there that you can pay to teach you.. I have done that and am wayyyy better off for it....
Get your A license and make some friends.. Once they have grabbed you up and taken you in.. It will be your turn to do the same to the next new guy..
Good Luck
Mark

[Liemberg 0]

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this could often be caused by all of the idiots yelling "beer" when someone lands in places like these.

It does happen, but in this case it wasn't. He was just PARTLY following instructions about "no go area's" (runways, runwaythresholds, taxiways, parking), mixing up priorities...

He ended up avoiding a nice empty pasture designated to park planes only to bust himself up in the next lot where occasionally a plane taxies. Actually, he was trying so hard to do everything *right* that with a bit more lenience towards himself he would have been OK.

Indeed, the call for beer (at my place the penalty for every landing outside the designated landing zone) can be counterproductive - though it is never on MY mind when I'm under a parachute...

For me as the DZO it's easy: an average of 3 cases per year is calculated into the lifttickets as unforseen expences, so they end up jubilantly drinking their own beer...

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it is much safer to land on pavement in a controlled manner than to do something rash to avoid it.

.
Signature Line:
It's not about the rules - it's about safety. G.P.

Amen to that.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[brianfry713 0]

This seems like a good idea if you can find and convince someone. In BASE it's pushed more strongly to find a mentor to teach you from the beginning.

BASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI
USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative

[MooU 0]

I think you just hit the nail on the head. Students and those just off student status who may need the advice of an experienced skydiver seem to be, sadly, the last ones who ask for it or try to find someone who can help. I like the BASE idea of having a mentor from the beginning but making that a natural part of every students progression would be very time consuming for the instructors. Also, there is always the difficult situation of people who simply don't listen no matter how good the advice.

TPM #59 POPS #9849 PMS #477

[Reginald 0]

Honestly, at my DZ jumpers who show up on a regular basis after getting their A have no shortage of mentorship. It's the guys that show up every 6 weeks for a couple of hours that no one knows and complain that nobody is teaching them that are the problem.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP