Alternative Economies

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

In Barcelona, the country’s second-largest city after Madrid, the preferred model is time banks, which allow people to trade their services in hours without the involvement of money.

“This is a way for people who are on the fringes of the economy to participate again,” said Josefina Altes, coordinator of the Spanish Time Bank Network.

Similar projects are popping up in Greece, Portugal and other euro-zone countries with troubled economies.

These experiments aim to take communities back to a time when goods and services were bartered, before things such as interest rates, market speculation and derivatives complicated the financial world.

[billvon 2,475]

Not so much alternative economies as alternative currencies.

>These experiments aim to take communities back to a time when goods and
>services were bartered, before things such as interest rates, market speculation and
>derivatives complicated the financial world.

That's just because few people barter their time for goods. If more people did it all those things would come into play.

Interest rates - "I fixed your sink a year ago and you promised me a dozen eggs! Give me 16 or I'm never doing any work for you again and I'm telling all my friends that you cheat."

Market speculation - "I know usually I give you a dozen eggs for fixing my sink, but I'll give you 24 because I just heard that there's going to be a big demand for plumbers due to the hurricane."

Futures - "I hear lots of people are going to want eggs and the chicken farmers are moving away. I'll promise to always fix your sink, any time, if you promise to always give me 12 - even 10 -eggs for it."

All the fancy terminology is just variations on some very basic themes. (And of course barter is taxed as well.)

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

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Not so much alternative economies as alternative currencies.

>These experiments aim to take communities back to a time when goods and
>services were bartered, before things such as interest rates, market speculation and
>derivatives complicated the financial world.

That's just because few people barter their time for goods. If more people did it all those things would come into play.

Interest rates - "I fixed your sink a year ago and you promised me a dozen eggs!

The promise of money. Not now. In the future.

[billvon 2,475]

>The promise of money. Not now. In the future.

Well, the promise of eggs. Consider it a debt (or if you want to get fancy a promissory note.) And - voila! - you have something like currency again; a promise (or a note) that _represents_ eggs.

(Which is nice; that way you're not always carrying eggs around.)

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

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>The promise of money. Not now. In the future.

Well, the promise of eggs. Consider it a debt (or if you want to get fancy a promissory note.) And - voila! - you have something like currency again; a promise (or a note) that _represents_ eggs.

(Which is nice; that way you're not always carrying eggs around.)

This is how I understand money to have arisen. First barter then barter with a time displacement. Barter now. Future money.

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

There are now more than 325 time banks and alternative currency systems in Spain involving tens of thousands of citizens. Collectively, these projects represent one of the largest experiments in social money in modern times.

Peter North, a senior lecturer at the University of Liverpool who has written two books about the subject, said alternative currencies — or scrips — have tended to appear during times of crisis and often disappear soon afterward. But North says the recent efforts in Spain may last longer because they are connected to the 15M, or “Indignados,” movement, originally a youth initiative organized through online social networks that was the inspiration for the Occupy protests around the world.

[billvon 2,475]

>alternative currencies — or scrips — have tended to appear during times of crisis and
>often disappear soon afterward. But North says the recent efforts in Spain may last
>longer . . .

They may last longer for another reason. The Internet and good public-key protocols allow better tracking of alternative currencies, and thus make the "money" it represents more portable and permanent. It also allows the government to tax it, which is a requirement for long term viability of any alternative currency.

[lawrocket 3]

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There are now more than 325 time banks and alternative currency systems in Spain involving tens of thousands of citizens.

Yep. The Spanish economy shrank .7% in the first six months of the year. Spain's unemployment is at 25%.

Here's the issue - such an alternative economy runs afoul of Spain's minimum wage laws. You have people negotiating their own prices for goods and services. Furthermore, they are under the table, avoiding taxes, and doing it without government approval.

I welcome you to the libertarian way of thinking.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

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>alternative currencies — or scrips — have tended to appear during times of crisis and
>often disappear soon afterward. But North says the recent efforts in Spain may last
>longer . . .

They may last longer for another reason. The Internet and good public-key protocols allow better tracking of alternative currencies, and thus make the "money" it represents more portable and permanent. It also allows the government to tax it, which is a requirement for long term viability of any alternative currency.

Barter as trade has survived for much longer than the recent upstart money. Whenever money trade breaks down its back to barter as a reflex move.

[Lefty 0]

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Barter as trade has survived for much longer than the recent upstart money. Whenever money trade breaks down its back to barter as a reflex move.

And when people get tired of carrying a dozen eggs around in their pockets all the time, it's back to money.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[billvon 2,475]

>Barter as trade has survived for much longer than the recent upstart money.

It's always been around, but has been minimized in countries with working financial systems - because money is just plain easier to use. As the Internet makes barter easier to use expect to see it increase.

(Of course, as Lawrocket mentions, you might not like some of the implications of that.)

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

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Barter as trade has survived for much longer than the recent upstart money. Whenever money trade breaks down its back to barter as a reflex move.

And when people get tired of carrying a dozen eggs around in their pockets all the time, it's back to money.

Which now is just a bunch of ones and zeroes in a computer.

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

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As the Internet makes barter easier to use expect to see it increase.

As faith in fiat money fades from its high point I expect to see barter increase many times over. The state will try to control and tax. The state may or may not succeed.

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

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Barter as trade has survived for much longer than the recent upstart money. Whenever money trade breaks down its back to barter as a reflex move.

And when people get tired of carrying a dozen eggs around in their pockets all the time, it's back to money.

They wouldn't carry the physical eggs. There would just be a few digits in the computer system linked to you saying that the eggs belonged to you.

[lawrocket 3]

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Barter as trade has survived for much longer than the recent upstart money. Whenever money trade breaks down its back to barter as a reflex move.

And when people get tired of carrying a dozen eggs around in their pockets all the time, it's back to money.

Which now is just a bunch of ones and zeroes in a computer.

Isn't that exactly what is done now? Money automatically transferred into a bank account?

You're just talking about under-the-table, untaxed wages. "It's not wages. It's ones and zeroes."

Again, I'm in favor of it - individually negotiated prices for labor. I simply pleased to see that you are becoming so free market oriented and seeing how lack of restrictions can help the working class.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[weekender 0]

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In Barcelona, the country’s second-largest city after Madrid, the preferred model is time banks, which allow people to trade their services in hours without the involvement of money.

“This is a way for people who are on the fringes of the economy to participate again,” said Josefina Altes, coordinator of the Spanish Time Bank Network.

Similar projects are popping up in Greece, Portugal and other euro-zone countries with troubled economies.

These experiments aim to take communities back to a time when goods and services were bartered, before things such as interest rates, market speculation and derivatives complicated the financial world.

Whats your point? do you think this would work in a broader sense? sure, i can ask someone to fix my cars alternator in exchange for me repairing the hard drive on his computer. Works great on a tiny scale. What about when i need a new car and he needs a new computer? seriously, who is going to build that for me in exchange for what?

I cannot wrap my mind around how someone could be so simple minded to think our modern society could work this way. This is not an adult conversation.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[billvon 2,475]

>As faith in fiat money fades from its high point I expect to see barter increase many
>times over.

?? "Faith in fiat money" is the same as "faith in barter money." Both are just ones and zeroes in a computer. The first time that someone owes someone 1000 hours and they say "so sue me, I'm not doing it, it's not legally binding anyway" faith in barter will erode.

>The state will try to control and tax. The state may or may not succeed.

They are quite good at it, and computers help them do it. Some people will of course get paid under the table, just as they do now.

[billvon 2,475]

>sure, i can ask someone to fix my cars alternator in exchange for me repairing the
>hard drive on his computer. Works great on a tiny scale. What about when i need a
>new car and he needs a new computer?

Then you transfer 5000 hours of labor to his account, and he transfers 1000 hours to yours. (Or whatever the car and computer is worth in hours.)

[weekender 0]

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>sure, i can ask someone to fix my cars alternator in exchange for me repairing the
>hard drive on his computer. Works great on a tiny scale. What about when i need a
>new car and he needs a new computer?

Then you transfer 5000 hours of labor to his account, and he transfers 1000 hours to yours. (Or whatever the car and computer is worth in hours.)

so this guy is going to build me a new car when i need it? can he do that? thats alot more involved than repairing my alternator. what about the 325 million other US residents that might want a new car? are they all going to exchange some skill of theirs for a new car too? This makes sense to you?

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[billvon 2,475]

>so this guy is going to build me a new car when i need it?

?? No, he's going to sell you a new car, just like car salesmen do now.

> are they all going to exchange some skill of theirs for a new car too? This makes
> sense to you?

Uh, yes. That's what we do now. You work, and people give you monetary units (dollars.) Then you spend those units to have someone else do work for you (like building you a car.)

You can call them dollars, or tems, or chits. The principle is the same.

[weekender 0]

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>so this guy is going to build me a new car when i need it?

?? No, he's going to sell you a new car, just like car salesmen do now.

> are they all going to exchange some skill of theirs for a new car too? This makes
> sense to you?

Uh, yes. That's what we do now. You work, and people give you monetary units (dollars.) Then you spend those units to have someone else do work for you (like building you a car.)

You can call them dollars, or tems, or chits. The principle is the same.

Only on the simpliest level is it the same. we are exchanging something for something therefore they are the same? our modern banking system is not even remotely the same to what the OP is describing.

What if i do not have enough hours in this bank to buy a new car but mine is ruined in a flood not covered by insurance? How do i get to work? will the bank loan me hours so i can purchase a car?

Who makes this car? how do they make weekly payroll without enough hours in their banks? as it is now, they create short term notes that pay interest in exchange for cash to make timely payments to employers and suppliers. do they create hour notes or bonds? they pay 2 hours on tuesday in exchange for 1 hour today?

Do you honestly believe that our current system is just like a barter system?

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[billvon 2,475]

>we are exchanging something for something therefore they are the same?

No, they're not the same. That's why they are called "alternative."

>What if i do not have enough hours in this bank to buy a new car but mine is ruined in >a flood not covered by insurance? How do i get to work? will the bank loan me hours
>so i can purchase a car?

Maybe, if you find the right bank.

What happens right now? What if your car is ruined but you can't get a loan and you can't pay for it outright? How do you get to work?

>Who makes this car?

Whoever. GM, Tesla Motors, Fiat - lots of people make cars.

>how do they make weekly payroll without enough hours in their banks?

Same way they make payroll without enough dollars in their banks.

>Do you honestly believe that our current system is just like a barter system?

Like I said, no. The big difference is removing fiat currency and replacing it with a free-floating currency. It doesn't matter what you call the currency - hours, chits, dollars, tems, euros, anything works.

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

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>As faith in fiat money fades from its high point I expect to see barter increase many
>times over.

?? "Faith in fiat money" is the same as "faith in barter money." Both are just ones and zeroes in a computer. The first time that someone owes someone 1000 hours and they say "so sue me, I'm not doing it, it's not legally binding anyway" faith in barter will erode.

>The state will try to control and tax. The state may or may not succeed.

They are quite good at it, and computers help them do it. Some people will of course get paid under the table, just as they do now.

Faith was the wrong word - didn't need a word - just 'as fiat money fades from its high point' is fine.

[weekender 0]

we are not on the same page.

I asked the OP what his point was and if it is to replace our current system with a barter system. I think that is a childish thought and anyone who understands the basics of the modern world could see that.

I dont think his alternative economy makes sense to adults. i brought up the alternator repair to new car purchase to show that when the silly theory is expanded into the real world it doesnt work. You could not run one motor company on a barter system let alone several.

Also, i write my post as one complete thought. if you pick out one sentence from the other it loses my intent. I understand you are trying to make a point but mine is lost when you do that. Im not really asking individual questions. I know who makes cars. that question in the context of the rest of my post makes more sense then when answered on its own. perhaps i have weak writing skills, sorry.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

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